On-board FX, or not, for theatre?

[Willow]

I'm on the verge of buying an analogue mixing desk for use in a small theatre environment. I've not worked in the theatre environment before so, it's a case of learning from those who have. After considering the budget constraint, I've settled on a choice between Soundcraft Spirit FX8 and the Soundcraft Spirit M-series 8. On the assumption that there is no cost difference between the two units my question, to those who work in theatre, is how frequently do you use a basic effects processor (reverb, flange, echo, etc)? Is it 'better' to buy the non-FX mixer (with more stereo inputs, in this case), and get a separate FX processor unit in the unlikely event it is required, or should I go for the FX8 on the basis that an effects processor will be required to enhance the production.

 

I know the answer is 'it depends' but, if you would be kind enough to point me in the right direction, by outlining what 'it' depends on, I can make a decision (possibly).

[ghance]

I'd say a non-fx mixer:

 

.its easy to add FX later, but trickier to add channels

 

.often end up using more channels than you 1st thought.

 

.on small analogue consoles the built-in FX are usually pretty basic, more suited to pub band than theatre

 

.you can add FX later, like a 2nd hand yamaha SPX90 for around the £100 mark. Or for theatre I'd suggest TC.. something like the M300 is only £120 new.

 

but personally I'm not keen on the the spirit range. vague 3-band EQ and 3 or 4 aux is too restrictive. might I suggest you look at allen & heath mix-wizard? there is a used 8+2 (12DX) unit on www.newstagesound.com for less than either of the spirits.

 

.spike

[Bobbsy]

There are two separate parts to your question:

 

The first is "how often do you use effects?". Well, in my case the answer is "a lot" but (as you guessed) the full answer is "it depends". Most of the shows I work on are musicals and, on these, it's pretty normal to use at least some reverb on the voices. Similarly, I've often been asked to provide some other sorts of effects flown in on vocals and speech...for example the cliche echo on the last word as somebody drifts in or out of a dream scene. All this is before you getting effects-heavy shows like "Scrooge" or the annual panto where the "baddies" are invariably covered in effects.

 

However, the second part of your question is "should I sacrifice channels to get effects?". The answer here has to be a big "no". There is a truism about speccing mixers: "the number of channels you need is invariably 2 more than you have". This is very true, but it's not just channels that matter: it's also things like the flexibility of the EQ section, the number of auxes, the number of busses and so on. Even if you don't think you need more now, you'll likely soon want them. So, since it's easier to buy or rent an effects unit or two later than it is to change your mixer, if your choice is to skimp on channels to get the effects, I recommend going with the channels.

 

(At this point I'll throw in my usual advert for digital mixers: one big advantage of going digital is that the effects are not only included but also included in the scene presets/automation. The ability to push a button the changes your mutes, levels AND flies in the right effect is something I don't want to lose now I've got it. Ever. However, I don't think digital is available in the price bracket you're talking about.)

 

Without knowing more about your needs, I'll hesitate to recommend a specific mixer. Both the Soundcrafts you mention are good value for the money they cost but may be limiting in the long run. Others to look at in a similar price range might be a Yamaha MG of the appropriate size or maybe even a Behringer Zenyz which might get you a bit more mixer for your money. Perhaps not as robust as Soundcraft but still a decent mixer, despite what the naysayers will tell you.

 

At the other end, ghance is right that an A&H is probably the better mixer...but it's a bit unfair comparing used to new prices...new it costs rather more. As an aside, I assume that when ghance says:

 

but personally I'm not keen on the the spirit range. vague 3-band EQ and 3 or 4 aux is too restrictive

 

...he actually means the FX8 rather than the whole range. The Soundcraft Spirit range of mixers is a wide one and has plenty of models with 4 band/2 swept EQ and up to 8 auxes. The better ones compete head on with anything A&H have and which is best comes down to personal choice. Depending on the model, I'm happy to mix on either.

 

Bob

[StevieR]

I'm with Spike on this one.

 

Generally, mixers used in theatre should have a 4-band EQ for good control of the inputs and sufficient inputs to cope with the variety of productions coming through - 16 channel minimum and 24 is nice. It should also be a quiet desk - no noisy pre-amp stages - as this can be quite evident during performances with silences, etc.

 

Although I have often used compact Soundcraft desks for small theatre jobs (e.g. Edinburgh Fringe) I do find them restrictive and not the best sounding apart from general music playback. The Yamaha MG desks, although very good value for money, have a very poor EQ and I would never use them for theatre work - esp with mics.

 

In terms of the on-board FX - don't bother. They are very restrictive and often pretty poor. Go for a good quality outboard unit every time.

 

The Soundcraft Spirit range of mixers is a wide one and has plenty of models with 4 band/2 swept EQ and up to 8 auxes.

In fact, the current Spirit range from Soundcraft only features one model with 4-band EQ and more than four Auxes - the Spirit Monitor 8 - a little overboard for the OP's purposes.

 

 

hth

 

Steve

[Bobbsy]

Generally, mixers used in theatre should have a 4-band EQ for good control of the inputs and sufficient inputs to cope with the variety of productions coming through - 16 channel minimum and 24 is nice. It should also be a quiet desk - no noisy pre-amp stages - as this can be quite evident during performances with silences, etc.

 

This is where being too specific gets dangerous. We know nothing of "the variety of productions coming through" for the original poster. Although there's a good chance you're right when you suggest 4 band EQ and 16-24 channels, you could just as easily be wrong. For example, there's a theatre near here that only ever does straight plays (no musicals) and never uses vocal amplification , just sound effects playback. For this (and considering the rest of their system) even 16 channels is overkill. Conversely, if the OP turns out to be working on fully amplified large-cast musicals, then 16-24 channels is too small. Unless the full details are known, making such specific recommendations can lead a poster "up the garden path". I agree that you're probably right for a typical small theatre...but there are few totally typical situations!

 

Although I have often used compact Soundcraft desks for small theatre jobs (e.g. Edinburgh Fringe) I do find them restrictive and not the best sounding apart from general music playback. The Yamaha MG desks, although very good value for money, have a very poor EQ and I would never use them for theatre work - esp with mics.

 

Of course a cheap mixer is not the best sounding, but to get a significantly BETTER sound will require a much higher price unless the OP wants to go to the second-hand market. Sometimes this can be a good move...but for a novice I sometimes wonder if a warranty is more valuable than absolute sound quality. I don't personally like the EQ on MG desks, but frankly it's not so dis-similar to the CHEAP Soundcraft as to not be considered. Being blunt, (and possibly elitist) at the amateur end of the market, not many beginners do much with the EQ anyway and, though I tend to get VERY picky, for a "starter mixer" I'd pay more attention to other features. FYI, the "British EQ" on the Behringer Zenyx is actually relatively useful...but I don't know of ANY mixers at the low end of the market with really good EQ. You have to be up to the high end Spirit or A&H stuff for the EQ to start to be good.

 

In terms of the on-board FX - don't bother. They are very restrictive and often pretty poor. Go for a good quality outboard unit every time.

 

A sweeping generalisation. Some are poor, some are mediocre and some are actually quite good. Similarly, outboard FX ranges from absolute stinkers to really sweet. The Lexicon stuff in the FX8 the OP mentioned is "okay"...not a favourite of mine but useable. As with mixers, unless you go for used you probably have to spend a fair bit to better most onboard effects.

 

In fact, the current Spirit range from Soundcraft only features one model with 4-band EQ and more than four Auxes - the Spirit Monitor 8 - a little overboard for the OP's purposes.

 

This is where it gets messy. Not every board that comes from the Spriit side of Soundcraft actually has the word "Spirit" in the name. For example, the Live 8, LX7 and the now-discontinued Digital 324/328 were all Sprit boards. However, it wasn't so much that I was recommending a high end Spirit board; rather I was taking exception to the sweeping generalisation that all Spirit boards have 3 band EQ and 3 auxes.

 

Sorry if I've switched to rant mode here, but these are a couple of pet peeves of mine. Posters come in here asking for advice on how to spend their money, and all too often the responses are either sweeping generalisations based on prejudice ("all Behringer is bad") or overly specific ("every theatre needs a 16-24 channel board"). Since every situation is different and, all to often, we don't have details of the OP's needs, I believe it's better to stick to general guidance in most cases.

 

Bob

[Rob_Beech]

At the end of the day, an analogue mixing desk with on board effects is a useful tool. As with anything there are good ones and bad ones but they generally follow the same sort of path as that of the mixing desk itself, not unlike the simple you get what you pay for comment.

 

Alot of simple shows (I mean simple in a sound reinforcement way) will not need any more than the basic reverb or delay (or both) provided with on board effects, its also important to note that an external fx processor may be quite complicated to use for someone with little experience.

 

Rob

[Willow]

Spike, Steve, Bob, and Rob. Thanks for your well thought out replies. I would dearly like to buy an A&H MixWizard/PA12 but the budget I have just won't go that far. I was originally thinking of the Behringer XENIX 1204/FX, which appears to have great features for the money but, I wanted 100mm faders, not 60, which ruled out many of the cheaper desks. That's how I got round to thinking about the Soundcraft desks.

 

Just to add some context... The theatre is a hall with just two front-of-house speakers and a single dual-channel amplifier. Inputs will be three to four microphones and a minidisc player. As you can tell, the 'system' is definitely amateur. With around 200.00 GBP to spend on a mixer, choice is limited.

 

I'm willing to buy used but I haven't spotted any great used gear web sites. Do you know of any?

[Rob_Beech]

Hi,

 

From the classifieds section on this site you'll find a number of links. Click here

 

Also check the obvious ones such as ebay, theres often a few things crop up on there.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Rob

[dbuckley]

If you need a cheap (and thus by definition, fairly nasty) mixer for theatre work then I would recommend the cheap and nasty mixer I have, which is an Alto L12, or possible the one with more mic channels, the L16. I'm sure its a clone of a Behringer, but I cant find the Behringer model I think its a clone of...

 

The bads points are its noisy, few mic channels, lousy EQ, and rough effects, and the graphic hums (but has a bypass button which makes the hum go away), graphic is fixed assigned to the L/R mix, and global phantom switching.

 

The good points are four stereo inputs with EQ, 4 groups (each L/R/L+R assignable), 4 auxes (two post, two switchable), inserts on everything, direct outs on mics, usable effects routable to any and all of L+R, 1+2, 3+4, or out through a socket on the back, four stereo returns without EQ (one routable), main outs on XLR and jack, and integrated graphic.

 

I can't do a full blown musical on it, but for plays, its a really useful tool. Being able to do stereo mix plus four effects mixes is very cool. If there are enough inputs for what you need to do, then you can route and mix any way you can dream. This thing has way more flexibility than many mixers several times its price.

[StevieR]

Posters come in here asking for advice on how to spend their money, and all too often the responses are either sweeping generalisations based on prejudice ... or overly specific ... Since every situation is different and, all to often, we don't have details of the OP's needs, I believe it's better to stick to general guidance in most cases.

 

Bob

 

I agree with most of that, Bob, but I would also propose that posters are also looking for individual opinions. If you get too general you run the risk of not actually being helpful. Sometimes its fine to be prejudiced as long as you have the experience to back it up. Neither is it always wrong to be too specific - posters can look at the information given and see if it applies to their situation or not.

 

So, taking into account the points you raised I will return to the main question - the onboard effects. My personal opinion based on experience of a number of different boards is that they are no where near as flexible as an outboard unit. Granted, there are some dedicated effects units that should be taken outside and shot but you get the additional control of each effect that I personally find useful. From the onboard effects I have used including soundcraft, yamaha and allen&grief, I have only found one or maybe two that I find usable but have to be used carefully. So, my opinion would be to get an outboard unit.

 

hth

 

Steve

[Bobbsy]

I agree with most of that, Bob, but I would also propose that posters are also looking for individual opinions. If you get too general you run the risk of not actually being helpful. Sometimes its fine to be prejudiced as long as you have the experience to back it up. Neither is it always wrong to be too specific - posters can look at the information given and see if it applies to their situation or not.

 

Yeah, I agree, and perhaps I came on a bit strong this morning (but I was having a BAAAAD morning!). In fact, you'll notice that I gave my own opinion on the actual question about whether the OP should buy a mixer with or without FX...in which I largely agree with you, though for different reasons.

 

I also agree that, for the right question, opinions (even prejudiced ones) are valid. Many's the time I've opined against Mackie boards...which, though based on bad personal experiences is definitely a prejudice on my part!

 

However, I guess where I differ is when a post offers specific advice to a question without knowing the background details. The assertion that "generally a theatre board needs 16 inputs, preferably 24" was one such example. I've worked on shows where 48 inputs were tight...and others where a Spirit Folio notepad left me spare channels!

 

Anyhow, with a glass or two of wine tonight and the prospect of an early bedtime my mood has improved!

 

Finally, regarding external FX processors, the only problem is that, for most needs, to get a better sound than a typical built in you need to spend a bit of cash. Possibly the better option if you're not sure is to rent as needed rather than buy.

 

Bob

 

Bob

[ghance]

ok so the OP didn't detail the venue or exact application, but given the OP is considering the spirit FX8 or M8 in a small theatre venue there are some pretty big clues.

 

I've got a FX16 & Miz Wizard 16:2 and have used an M8 a few times. in order of preference: Mix Wiz (better eq than other 2), M8 - okay build quality & 4 stereo's on faders useful, FX16 - the sub group can be useful sometimes... say across the radio mics with a parametric inserted.

 

the FX16 is in our conference mix rack and I insert a behringer ultracurve across sub-group for a tricky lecturn mic or lapel mics... not bad for a budget set-up.

 

sound like the OP was on the right track given the budget of around £300. if budget is more flexible I'd suggest looking at:

 

<£1500 ..IMHO I'd say if you've the budget, bob's bang on with digital.. but I'd suggest an industry standard like a yamaha 01v96 over some of the less widely available small digital consoles.. means any visiting engineers are likely to feel 'at home'.. but maybe too £££. lots of quality features in a compact unit. expandable by linking consoles.

 

<£1000 ..Mix Wizard (expandable by linking consoles with the link card option) or Mackie Onyx. well built units with good eq and enough aux's for most needs.

 

<£500 ..ebay for a 2nd user Yamaha 01v (non-96) - okay so the pre-amps are pretty basic but its got a lot for the money. else 2nd user mackie onyx / mix-wiz 16:2.

 

< £300 .. M12

 

<£200 ..behringer or hit the classified.

 

my 2p

 

.spike

 

 

have analogue money a&h mix-wiz. if buget real tight, the M8.

[Willow]

Thanks all, for your valuable input. In the end I ordered a Soundcraft M8 desk (249.00 GBP). By the way, I value the alternative view points offered. Life would be pretty dull if there was only one right answer to each question.

 

Right. Now for the Power Amp and Speakers. I'll start a new thread.

[StevieR]

Glad it was all useful. Look forward to another opinionated discussion on the other bits! :)

 

Steve

[Bobbsy]

** laughs out loud **...well, when you post your amp and speaker query, give us a paragraph or two about the sort of things you do...and the budget you have! This info will make a huge difference in terms of what's appropriate!

 

:)

 

Bob