Monitors - Any suggestions?

[Heapsy]

Hi All,

 

My first post so please be gentle!

I'm just about to finish an install for my church and was after some suggestions for foldback wedges.

To give you an overview,

On the sound side we have installed an M7CL, D&B FOH and now realise the wedges we have just don't cut it (JBL 112M), they seem to blow their horns very 6 months! On closer inspection this is because said horns appear to be made from tin foil! (Anyone else had this problem?)

So here it is, what would you reccomend, I'm looking at getting about 10 passive boxes and budget is approx £250 per box. I have heard rave reviews about Wharfdales newish monitor speakers but having not heard them and only knowing the name from th HiFi market am not convinced. Has anyone heard these monitors or can you reccomend something else.

 

Thanks for your time

 

Mark

 

PS If anyone wants to buy 6 JBL 112Ms please let me know! :unsure:

[Ben Lawrance]

In keeping with your FOH rig, why not look at the MAX from D&B. I know they are out of your budget, but they do come up second hand now and again. It's worth a quick look round the net to see what's about.

 

I assume as you already have the JBL's that you have amplifiers?

[Pete]

In keeping with your FOH rig, why not look at the MAX from D&B. I know they are out of your budget, but they do come up second hand now and again. It's worth a quick look round the net to see what's about.

 

I assume as you already have the JBL's that you have amplifiers?

 

£250 for a MAX-If you find them for that let me know!

[Simon Lewis]

Heapsy,

 

A couple of issues.....

 

The "tin foil" in the horns isn't a sign of poor quality - that's how HF diaphragms are made. They must have a very low mass to achieve the rapid movement needed to achieve good high frequency reproduction.

 

However you should ask the following questions to determine why are you blowing HF units:

 

1) are the amplifiers correctly matched to the boxes? Assuming they're JBL JRX 112M boxes, the amps should deliver between 250 W to 500W per channel into 8 Ohms per box.

2) are the amplifiers ever run into clipping? If they are, it can cause damage. The boxes should have some protection - has this been checked?

3) do you have any limiting or other dynamics on the foldback system?

4) do the singers / musicians ever make a mistake and point their mic at the horn or get loads of feedback? If so, it needs dealing with!

5) What level do you run the monitors at? Do you ever have a rocknroll jam session that drives them a 'little bit harder'? Again, if the boxes are pushed too hard, it can be easy to blow HF units. You should be able to achieve a maximum of about 129dB, which is mighty loud...

 

If you cannot resolve your present problems, then yes - there are many boxes around at about £250 each. However, I'd suggest you don't buy them. Instead, a) review your amplifiers (and any limiting etc.) - they may need to be upgraded and b) choose a loudspeaker that is comparable in quality with your main PA and which sounds right on stage. There is little point is buying a lot of relatively inexpensive wedges if the existing quite good inexpensive wedges are getting trashed. A better quality wedge may well be clearer and not need to be run as loud to work effectively.

 

Overall, you need to look at the whole problem, not just buy new speakers and find you have the same issues all over again!

 

Incidentally, if it's any consolation, Adrian Thompson used to blow the HF units in my wedges at the same point in every Split Level gig. I soon learnt to mute the wedges just beforehand. Do say "hello" to him for me....!

 

Regards,

 

Simon

[handyandi]

Hi mark

 

Reiterating whats just been said there is an underlying problem as to why your drivers are failing. Check out what Simon says :unsure: 1st. £250 is a little on the low side for anything new of better quality than the 112's. There are though a lot of LE400's & LE12J's ex hire up for sale at the mo so a few of these on the louder musicians requiring them may be an option but even they are £1000 ish a pair. Check out bonza or intasound or concert systems.

 

Skan have some passive coaxial 12" for £350 & if you want real high power SSE have some wedges that metalica have tried to blow up!! for £300 & a few even more powerful biamp MB3's & 4's

 

Nice picture on Kings website. Wish my church could stretch to A MC7 & D&b Foh

 

All the best

[bigglesuk]

As Ben has already mentioned, why not look at the d&b Max monitors? We use the the Max 12 monitors alongside a d&b FOH and they sound great. We do some larger events every few months and they cope with them very well. We run them through QSC PLX amps.

 

Why not upgrade your monitors gradually? Change a couple of them and then when people hear them you may find suddenly some money may becomes available from somewhere!

[Furryface]

I know I've said this before on several occasions but you should try and push your budget a little and look at some Turbosound TXD-12Ms. Over your budget of £250 per cab but with a good deal you should see them for around £360 per cab. Sturdy, well built proper wedges monitors with nice tocuhes like link through leads on either side, a symmetrical shape so theay can be used as matched pairs and a pole holder in the handle box so you can use as a FOH.

 

I know its an old idiom but you get what you pay for. So whilst they are more expensive than your budget they'll outperform and outlast the Wharfedales IMHO, they are also a heap cheaper than the D&B alternatives mentioned.

 

Have a look at http://www.turbosound.com/showroom/txd12m/index.html

 

This is all based on my experience as to using these sturdy little workhorses - which can also be found in many touring venues in the UK where they generally have a hard life.

 

Still its "your" money

 

Furry

 

 

 

Oh and I nearly forgot they're only just up the road from your (just north of Brighton) so you should get in contact about a demo - I've always found them very helpful and informative.

 

:unsure:

[london sound]

We have just bought a whole load of TXD12m's have had great acceptance from engineers and musicians alike.

They have also been used as FoH on small conferences and sound terrific. You also do not need to do great deal to them with eq they generally sound right straight out of the box.

Talk to AC Lighting Audio section (Peter Butler) for a deal.

Also the TXD252 cab makes an awesome drum fill (drummers saying to loud!!!!!)

 

 

Ian

[Heapsy]

Hi,

Thanks for you replies, in response for what Simon was saying,

 

1) are the amplifiers correctly matched to the boxes? Assuming they're JBL JRX 112M boxes, the amps should deliver between 250 W to 500W per channel into 8 Ohms per box.

 

The amps are properly rated and match the boxes.

 

2) are the amplifiers ever run into clipping? If they are, it can cause damage. The boxes should have some protection - has this been checked?

 

This has been checked, the amps don't run into the red at all, at first I also thought this would be the problem but unfortunatly it wasn't!

 

3) do you have any limiting or other dynamics on the foldback system?

 

On the output of the desk for each amp channel there is a compressor but this is all functioning normally, ie no clipping here either.

Previous to the M7 we had a A+H GL2200 which didn't have any dynamics on the outputs but again there never should have been enough level to blow a horn.

 

4) do the singers / musicians ever make a mistake and point their mic at the horn or get loads of feedback? If so, it needs dealing with!

 

Obviously it would be silly to say we never get feedback but when we do it is never significant and certainly not enough to blow horns!

 

5) What level do you run the monitors at? Do you ever have a rocknroll jam session that drives them a 'little bit harder'? Again, if the boxes are pushed too hard, it can be easy to blow HF units. You should be able to achieve a maximum of about 129dB, which is mighty loud...

 

I agree that there should be plenty of poke in the boxes but for some as of yet unresolved reason the horns go!

 

Thanks for your advice, and I really don't wish to sound pompous but I think we have covered the points you have mentioned...

[Simon Lewis]

I really don't wish to sound pompous but I think we have covered the points you have mentioned...

 

Not at all.... it's just worth asking these questions first! Also, I think I suspected some degree of inexperience when you described a titanium alloy diaphragm as tin foil ;-)

 

OK, next thing to check....

 

Additional HF diaphragm problems can arise from impulse sounds (e.g. spikes generated by guitar jacks being plugged in without channels being muted first or from amplifier switch on 'thumps'), from changes to the load presented to the amp (e.g. two wedges on one amp channel (although this isn't always an issue)), from inexpertly reconed HF units (any repairs should have dealt with replacing any lost ferrofluid), from ultrasonic oscillation, from fatigue (can be associated with ultrasonic problems).

 

When a diaphragm goes, what happens to the SonicGuard device (probably a small lamp that lowers the current flowing through the HF coil when it lights up)? Is it still functional? Is the HF coil itself thermally damaged (dark areas on the coil varnish or on the former itself)? - or are there signs of physical breakup (damage to the metal diaphragm itself, signs of rubbing on the coil)? - or is the coil and diaphragm in good condition but simply metering as open circuit? Is the crossover working correctly?

Looking at these issues may give indications of how the HF unit failed.

 

Our church runs JBL SRX4702s, and although we've had a few loud bands play through them no horns have gone yet. However, I have had a few of the same units blow in my hire stock - either too loud, or they were run off an underpowered amp.

What amps are you using with them? - I appreciate you say that they're matched, but I'm curious. Do you run one wedge per amp channel, or more than one? How has your gain structure been set up?

 

Sorry to ask more questions.... The JRX range isn't a top end product, but it shouldn't be blowing HFs for no reason. As other posters have said, there's many good products available (I really like the JBL SRX712M, but they're not cheap). If you can determine what your root problem is (even if it's "your too loud for your existing boxes") it will allow you to upgrade with some added confidence!

 

One curve ball..... have you thought about in ear monitoring as a way of reducing stage level and improving the quality of personal monitoring??

 

HTH,

 

Simon

[gus_b]

A couple of comments

 

1. If you have a professional, high-end FOH PA like d&b, why not consider d&b's stage monitors (MAX12 possibly)

and using either D12 or EPAC for amplification.

 

http://www.dbaudio.com/en/systems/monitors/max12/

 

2. Consider in ear monitoring.

 

cheers

gus

[Mr.Si]

Hi there Heapsy,

 

It's nice to know there are some people who're slightly more local to me than the majority of people on here!

I often pass the Roundabout your church sponsors! (When my work takes me to the sunshine coast).

I may have to visit the church one sunday and say hi.

 

I've never used your monitors, but I do use Wharfedale monitors. I've just got 6 boxes of theirs and am very happy with them as are the musicians I've invoked them upon. Clear and smooth are words to describe the sound from them. They're the LiX12M model.

However they're not made anymore, which is due to them being very well made, yet Wharfedale still insisted on keeping the price low, and thus they constantly made losses from them.

 

Which model was it you were thinking of?

 

I'd be also one to keep with the d&b brand in terms of your speakerage. You don't want to spoil your setup with second-rate monitoring. But yes, £250 per monitor is a little low...

Monitors are like, incredibly important, 'cause if the musicians aren't happy then their musicality and the flow of the worship won't work as well or might get in the way of the more important things going on in the time of praise and worship. (In a church situation).

 

I agree with what's been said so far esp from Mr. Lewis and Mr. Lawrance.

[dbuckley]

... Adrian Thompson used to blow the HF units in my wedges at the same point in every Split Level gig.

errrm.... doing what, exactly...?

[Simon Lewis]

errrm.... doing what, exactly...?

 

I should point out that the OP works at ICC, a studio in Eastbourne. Adrian works(ed?) there, but years ago he played in a band called Split Level. We did quite a lot of their gigs with a loud, but basic PA.

 

Being from Ballymena in Northern Ireland, he would say after the first song, "Hullo again" in his wonderful accent.

 

The crowd would murmur a polite hello.

 

Adrian would shout it out a second time, and get a slightly warmer response.

 

Then he'd scream it again at the top of his voice, with his epiglottis 20 microns from the mic. Every bargraph on the monitor desk would go red, amps would peak, the varnish on the toroidal transformers would start to vapourise, and my poor (and less than robust wedges) would pop their little Fane MD2050 diaphragms.

 

I soon learnt to hit the mute button after the second "hello" ;-)

 

Simon

[Dan Appleby]

1. If you have a professional, high-end FOH PA like d&b, why not consider d&b's stage monitors (MAX12 possibly)

and using either D12 or EPAC for amplification.

 

d&b max wedges don't need EPACs or D12's to power them (d&b event state that if you use D12's or EPACs to power them, they should be set to 'linear' - i.e. no DSP processing), so you don't need to fork out mega bucks on d&b amps - any amp will power them (as long as thay have high enough output).

 

Dan.