H&S Rampage

[dwh]

I'm at a school, and our H&S officer is on a rampage; he's decided that students should not be allowed in the flys. Access is by permanent wall-mounted ladder, and they're about 10' above the wings (no huge height). There's a 3ish' wall across the side of the fly to stop you falling on the stage, and they were assessed safe enough that actors could go up there, climb a ladder and walk out on a (very unsafe! I had to rig lights off the side, and really was pushing what I was comfortable doing) gantry, for the last play we did. The other fly was assessed safe enough for us to fly things in and out from it in the same play. I can't see any reason why going up there poses a significant risk (unless you're doing things like jumping off the sides, which we clearly don't do; our crew have some vaguaries of common sense!

 

Obviously without seeing the situation, no one can give *real* advice, but I predict an argument with our H&S officer coming up very quickly, and I'm wondering if you lot have any advice (is he probably right? Is he probably wrong? Are there legislative grounds for either answer?)

[mumbles]

...and they're about 10' above the wings (no huge height).

Quibling here, but reconsider this. My mum had an accident with a lift, where the lift and floor weren't level, and as such she tripped. Now my mum isn't exactly a tall person (5 foot 1) but tripping and falling on 5 foot shes really badly hurt herself, to the extent she had to stop work. So really, the height doesn't need to be great for a fall to be lethal, especially with a youth's not fully developed skull.

 

There's a 3ish' wall across the side of the fly to stop you falling on the stage, and they were assessed safe enough that actors could go up there, climb a ladder and walk out on a (very unsafe! I had to rig lights off the side, and really was pushing what I was comfortable doing) gantry, for the last play we did.

and so as such, I can understand why H and S are a bit dubious.

 

Obviously without seeing the situation, no one can give *real* advice, but I predict an argument with our H&S officer coming up very quickly, and I'm wondering if you lot have any advice (is he probably right? Is he probably wrong? Are there legislative grounds for either answer?)

I suspect you will have read the many topics about students working in theatres and schools without teachers or supervising adults, and so assuming you have a teacher in charge, I would leave him/her to deal with it. If you feel that they won't put your views across as well as the school's, then go through what you think with the teacher, or possibly see if the H and S people are willing to have you attend a meeting as well. Other than this, a school will normally side with H and S ideas, purely to keep themselves safe, but remember that they're not hard and fast rules. If you and the school can demonstrate that there will always be an adult in charge, that you have trained your crew, and that you have RA'd the work, then the view may be to let you do it. Above all, make sure that you cooperate with H and S, and take all their opinions on board, they're there with every intention of making you safe.

 

The other side of this, is that when RAing, have you considered other forms of access, such as scaffold towers, which could make the work safer. This could remove the need to use the gantry in question, and could improve the safety.

[herb]

Firstly, don't get into an argument. It will not further the cause.

Ask to meet him to carry out a risk assessment. Show him how you work and how people who need to access this area are given instruction on what, what not to do etc.

Write the method down beforehand in as much detail as possible and for as many circumstances as possible.

I would imagine his concerns are to do with young people and work at height regs. But could also concern the weight of any bars you are trying to pull, training and a number of others possibly.

Read the regs and try to understand what they are saying in terms of risk control. (google or whatever should produce any number of results)

If you do this you are showing that you are taking a professional approach and speaking to him/her in their own language.

Agreement is possible. Compromise may be necessary. Be reasonable.

Some H&S people go in with all guns blazing to make their lives simple. Remember the school that banned conkers? A typical over reaction of a either a lazy or paranoid (litigation potential)

Safety people should enable productions in these situations and not make things difficult.

Let the forum know how you get on.

Good luck

H

[David A]

In this situation I always ask for a written assessment of the situation with particular reference to which rules and regulations are being invoked this is usually the end of the matter as most safety rules are quite sensible and the 'interpretation' of the person is overzealous.The number of imaginary rules I come across on a daily basis are incredible, I have been told it is illegal to use ladders,or climb ladders without a safety harness,etc,etc.So find out in writing, read the relevent bits and you will most likely find the 'exception ' that will remove the objections.'

[andy_s]

I quite agree about imaginary rules...far too widely quoted.

 

however, there are specific rules about vertical "cat" ladders about guarding, distance of climb before you need a rest platform, etc, and it may be this that's concerning your H&S officer.

[dwh]

Athanking you very much :** laughs out loud **: Will keep you informed!

[paulears]

If somebody has been designated as responsible for heath and safety, then this person has to be CONVINCED what you will be doing is safe. Unless you can, you won't be allowed to do it. So - you need facts, evidence and another member of staff supporting you. Without it, you will not be allowed to do it - as simple as that. All the rubbish everybody quotes about wat the law allows just makes it worse. Without clear proof of safe activity, proper risk assessments, t use the imortal words of Dads army - you're doomed, doomed!

[Ynot]

I'm at a school, and our H&S officer is on a rampage; he's decided that students should not be allowed in the flys.

My first comment is this - don't take it personally, but it falls into the same category as several other topics here at the moment.

 

You are a student, and whilst you are (approx) 17, acc to your profile, as a student you have no legal responsibility and therefore NO VALID VOICE as far as the H & S are concerned.

Sorry if it sounds a bit patronising, but there's going to be nothing that you yourself can say that can or is likely to influence their decision.

 

But all is not necessarily lost.

 

Now, it sounds like (rereading the OP) that this H & S officer is one of the school's own employees, yes?

If so, what is needed is a qualified voice of authority. This could be an experienced adult member of an am-dram group who can spaek the H & S lingo or it could even be a rep from a theatrical supplier (even better!).

What THEY need to do is give an independent assessment of the situation and then THEY need to discuss the matters calmly with the school's H & S.

 

However, as you've already intimated, there ARE some unsafe situations existing, which leads me to suggest that in fact they MAY be quite right in banning students from the flies. If the access to the dangerous catwalk is easily achieved, then that would be more than enough for me to agree with him!

And yes - ten feet high is EASILY a dangerous height to fall from. As is two feet if you fall badly!

 

Let us know how it goes, anyway.

 

Tony

[dbuckley]

Does the ladder have an enclosing cage type thing?

[dwh]

For reference, the gantry isn't there; it was a temporary addition for one play so we could dump a hanging recussy-anny from the top of a mast centre stage.

 

And no, there's no enclosing cage thingy.

[dbuckley]

And no, there's no enclosing cage thingy.

<fx> sharp intake of breath through teeth</fx>

 

That could be a very good reason for "being difficult" about going up there...

[paulears]

so what you have is some kind of bodged up platform about 10 feet up in the air that people could (and nearly did) fall off? It is a 'gantry' added for one play. Sounds like the ban is a pretty sensible thing. Who built it? Is it safe? why are there no handrails to stop you falling - loads of questions the H&S man will need answering - and no doubt the person who devised such a lash up, safety wise will get a roasting for putting the poor students in danger!

[dwh]

To be fair it was actually safely done (there were hand-rails, it was boarded ok, it was safe to walk across as long as you're sensible). It was actually built by the teacher in charge of the crew, and I'm sure they RA'd it (though I would totally understand if they wanted to lock up the fly while that was up there). But it was most definitely a one-off and is no longer there.

[paulears]

Bingo! You used the word sensible - this is the one main problem with schools. They are full of people who are most certainly NOT sensible! What could be termed reasonable in a professional environment - your flys in this example - may simply be too dangerous with the people who can have access. You may find that in a college, even with 16+ people - problems arise. My old college was deemed 'safe' - but then we started taking 14+ people from the local schools for a few days a week. Our carefully looked after kit and premises soon started to show the strains of carelessness and silly behaviour. Schools need to be able to cope with this, and banning kids from using potentially dangerous areas seems pretty sound, despite the few who may be mature enough to not be a danger to themselves or others.

[Pete McCrea]

....allowed in the flys. Access is by permanent wall-mounted ladder, and they're about 10' above the wings (no huge height). There's a 3ish' wall across the side of the fly to stop you falling on the stage,

 

It sounds like it's a properly constructed fly floor, at a sensible height from stage with a wall to prevent falls and equipment being knocked fromthe fly floor. Have you asked the H&S guy exactly why you're not allowed up there now? With the bottom of the fly floor being about 9'6" from the stage floor, is enclosing the ladder practical for the last 3' of the ladder? I'd agree with the rest of the posters on the age issues, and don't get into a fight on this. Make well reasoned and properly informed points, and you might make some head room.