New gear for a charities youth dept.

[timrobsund]

So here is the deal I work for a charity running their youth department, this year we hosted 5 conferences in various locations all over the country with up to 120 people. 1 of which is a training weekend for people involved in music at church type events. We also host a bunch of different 1 day events ranging from youth meetings with some music and a speaker and fair sized rock gigs, with up to like 100 peeps and a fair sized band. So a mate said this is the best place to go for soem extra input and advice... so here I am!

 

Present gear ranges from 10 years old to 5 years old. Just had a bunch of money released from a donation to buy new gear. woo hoo I said until I started to write the spec! obviously I have a limited budget, and a few considerations in changing the gear. The gear is not in constant or even weekly uses so I am not too worried about the best build quality. I work with young people and so I am not to worried about getting the highest sound quality. I do want to be able to do as much plug and play as possible, open the case out, plug in the power and plug in the snake hey presto! but I am also a realist, that ain't gonna happen but there are a few things we can do to get there.... I am not an expert as such, but a regular user. This spec has been pulled together by a team of three of us who are range form me to expects that used to work int h field. BUT that is a used to work in the field and he loves the o1v that we have presently, that I want to get rid of cos no 15 year old can really get used to it or understand in a weekend, just too complex in many ways. So here is wot we got so far, please get me your thoughts, I know everyone would probably do it differently to...

 

Yamaha MG32/14FX plus case

 

In a case up near the desk,

Berhinger Multi Com Pro XL

Berhinger Ultracurve Pro

Shelf for DVD player

Berhinger DSP1124P Feedback destroyer (for fold back channels)

Berhinger ultrpatch pro px2000

 

Case at the back on the stage, or near,

Self made patch panel with 10 m XLR, 6 Female XLR, 6 speakon and 4 powercon

2 shelfs with radio mics on (we already have the mics )

Berhinger DI8000

2 amps for fold back the t.amp S-150 Power Amplifier, 2x150W 4 Ohm, 2x85W 8 Ohm https://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_tamp_s150_prodinfo.html

amp for FOH in this matched set, https://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_artikel-195360.html

 

4 fold back speakers The Box M12e https://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_the_box_m12e_...x_prodinfo.html

 

and also looking at a few extra mics for drums or orchestral type instruments,

 

condensers

http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_the_tbone_em8...t_prodinfo.html

 

bass drum mic

http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_the_tbone_bd300_prodinfo.html

 

 

Sorry dudes, loads of stuff, any help woudl be appriciated!

[Ynot]

Hi Tim - welcome to the Blue Room.

 

First things first - I guess from the way you write, and the content, that you're what we'd classify as a minor at the moment - are you the 15-yr old you mention?

If so, then your best bet by a LONG way is to take your list (whatever that may turn out to be) to an adult who can do the necessary negotiation on your behalf. obviously this has to be someone you trust, as well as one who's not going to rip you off or charge commission on any deals struck. but they DO have to be fairly knowledgable and preferably have good contacts.

 

The problem with being youthful is that suppliers may not necessarily take you seriously, or at least seriously enough to allow you to barter for a better deal. Sure, you'll get kit at cost price if you call and say "I want X, Y and Z - here's the cash" but discounts on new gear are nearly ALWAYS available if you're the right person in the right place with the right patter.

 

So, that's my advice for now.

 

TD

[Bobbsy]

Okay...with a whole system there are no rights or wrongs...but herewith a few thoughts for discussion:

 

This spec has been pulled together by a team of three of us who are range form me to expects that used to work int h field. BUT that is a used to work in the field and he loves the o1v that we have presently, that I want to get rid of cos no 15 year old can really get used to it or understand in a weekend, just too complex in many ways.

 

The move from an 01V to any analogue desk in your price range is going to be a major backwards move in terms of quality and facilities. The 01V is a proper professional tool; the MG series is amateur/MI grade. I hear what you say about the difficulties for inexperienced ops to pick up a digital board, but would a 32 channel analogue really be that much easier? If it was me, instead of a new board I might spend some time entering some general pre-sets so the simple stuff can be done by calling up an existing plot.

 

However if, after thinking about it you still want to make the change:

 

So here is wot we got so far, please get me your thoughts, I know everyone would probably do it differently to...

 

Yamaha MG32/14FX plus case

 

The other, similar featured desk in you range would be the Behringer 3242FX Pro and this is worth a look. I have no problem with the Yamaha, but believe the Behringer offers similar quality and features for a street price about £200 less. It may be worth a look.

 

In a case up near the desk,

Berhinger Multi Com Pro XL

Berhinger Ultracurve Pro

Shelf for DVD player

Berhinger DSP1124P Feedback destroyer (for fold back channels)

Berhinger ultrpatch pro px2000

 

Your choice of outboard really depends on your needs and only you know that, but....

 

-I'm not sure if a compressor unit fits into your "operable by an inexperienced 15 year old" box...comps take experience to set up properly. One advantage of the O1V is that the comps there can be stored in memory.

 

-You don't say which Ultracurve you're specifying. The DEQ2496 is a lovely unit for the money but may be a bit complex for the inexperienced users.

 

-I'm not a fan of feedback destroyers...and if you do go for such a system remember to let it hit a few key frequencies and lock it off, otherwise it'll suddenly decide your guitar solo is feedback too!. For simplicity sake, I might change the DEQ and DSP units for a matching set of Ultragraph Graphic EQ/FBQ boxes, one for Mons and one FOH. Although the Ultracurve is a nicer unit in skilled hands, the visual aspect of seeing the graphic EQ might be simpler.

 

Case at the back on the stage, or near,

Self made patch panel with 10 m XLR, 6 Female XLR, 6 speakon and 4 powercon

 

My personal preference would be to keep signal, speaker and power connections on separate panels....and in separate looms for the wiring.

 

2 shelfs with radio mics on (we already have the mics )

Berhinger DI8000

2 amps for fold back the t.amp S-150 Power Amplifier, 2x150W 4 Ohm, 2x85W 8 Ohm https://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_tamp_s150_prodinfo.html

amp for FOH in this matched set, https://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_artikel-195360.html

 

4 fold back speakers The Box M12e https://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_the_box_m12e_...x_prodinfo.html

 

See my reply to your other post about the DI box. As for the amps and speakers, my only comment is that you're likely rather underpowered for the rock band part of your list, both at FOH and monitors. Depending on the ratio of simple speakers to rock music events, perhaps you should scale back on the monitors and subs, and use the money saved to do occasional rentals of a bigger system when required. Obviously this depends on how often you need to do this though.

 

 

and also looking at a few extra mics for drums or orchestral type instruments,

 

condensers

http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_the_tbone_em8...t_prodinfo.html] http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_the_tbone_em8...t_prodinfo.html[/url]

 

bass drum mic

http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_the_tbone_bd300_prodinfo.html

 

Sorry, not used any of these mics so can't comment. Thomann are usually reliable though!

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Matt Riley]

Hi Tim,

 

Regarding your choice of gear,in general you are looking at the cheapest stuff on Thomann, which might not be the most flexible or cost effective in the end.

 

With regard to passive reasonably priced monitors, then previously I have had success with yamaha S112s (a few years ago someone did some phase /frequency response testing and they came out okay on paper as well as sounding fine). You do need more amplification for an effective mons setup though - try 300 watts at 8 ohms as a starting point. An easier way would be to buy some Mackie SRM450s which cost about £400 each and simplify things quite a lot.

 

I have found that it pays to just buy reasonable quality mics - SM58s, 57s and AKG C1000. Its quite hard to go wrong with a sennheiser evo kick mic (e602?) but if budget is really tight buy a samson drum mic set and use the overheads for strings etc. You could look at hire companies like SSE which sell off older 58s and 57s for about £40 a pop. Failing that the Behringer XM8500 is a good buy.

 

With regard to the patch, its probably a good idea to have a multicore which splits off to the stagebox at the stage end. Run the power from a central point to the mixer, amp racks and stage distro. Amp racks should have patch panels on the front with power, input and output connections, as you suggested.

 

Behringer outboard would probably work OK, and I've got to get back to work now

 

Hope it all comes together,

 

Matt

[timrobsund]

Hey everyone thanks for the speedy responces, very much appricieated, well almost... not too sure about the guy who thinks I am 15, all I can say is not yet 30, but married with child!!.........good tip at the end of his post about discounts though!

 

MIXER, a good friend as that berhinger, and he says he regrets buying it... put me off a bit... Digital versus analogue, the O1v doesn't have enough channels. The feedback from the youngsters (like not me, but the ones who use it, who are actually 15!) have said thehy prefer to be abel to see all the nobs an featurs right in front of them rather than have to scroll thought banks on a display to simply see the set up. I do take the message about pre-sets, but if everything is pre-set, how do they learn to set it?

 

Ultrcurve, yup that is the one, I have wondered abotu the complexities, but then I was thinking, once it is set up, not much changes during a set, same with the compressers... not sure botu these, food for thought as they say.

 

not enough power, tha tis a good coment, but the amp has a higher rating the our present one and the speakres are bigger too, so I am thinking it will be enough.

 

Question bout patch panel , how seperate? on the plan we have them grouped, pawer at one end, speakers in the middle inputs at the other end, BUT we did think, maybe put power on the back of the rack, and have seperate rack for input and out put. Looms we are making the cables up.. no idea why, think we have a few boxes of cables...

[Bobbsy]

MIXER, a good friend as that berhinger, and he says he regrets buying it... put me off a bit... Digital versus analogue, the O1v doesn't have enough channels. The feedback from the youngsters (like not me, but the ones who use it, who are actually 15!) have said thehy prefer to be abel to see all the nobs an featurs right in front of them rather than have to scroll thought banks on a display to simply see the set up. I do take the message about pre-sets, but if everything is pre-set, how do they learn to set it?

 

Ultrcurve, yup that is the one, I have wondered abotu the complexities, but then I was thinking, once it is set up, not much changes during a set, same with the compressers... not sure botu these, food for thought as they say.

 

In terms of quality and reliability, I don't think there's much to choose between that Behringer and the cheapie Yamaha you mentioned. Neither are in the same league as the 01V. I terms of channels, the simple addition of an ADA8000 will bring you up to 24 channels; with an MY8AT card and a second ADA 8000 you'll have 32 channels...and every channel will have gate, compression, delay and multiband swept EQ available. The "analogue vs digital" debate has been going strong in here for ages and there are valid points on both sides; certainly the trend is towards digital and fewer knobs but, at the same time, a simple analogue board can be easier to teach. I just wanted you to be aware that you are taking a MAJOR backwards step in quality. You're probably swapping your small Volvo for a second hand Lada.

 

Finally, my comments on the Ultracurve and ultracomp: your suggestions here are 180 degrees out of phase with your mixer ambitions. Both are good units...but you're introducing exactly the same sort of menus and complications there as you're trying to eliminate on the mixer.

 

Bob

[Adam Brinkworth]

Yamaha MG32/14FX plus case

 

In a case up near the desk,

Berhinger Multi Com Pro XL

Berhinger Ultracurve Pro

Shelf for DVD player

Berhinger DSP1124P Feedback destroyer (for fold back channels)

Berhinger ultrpatch pro px2000

 

I have just purchased an ultracurve, if im not mistaken, it has a feedback destroyer built in....

Also I belive that the DSP1124P is discontinued anyway.

Just a thought, could save you some cash anyway.

 

Adam

[benweblight]

I have used both the yamaha and the behringer.

 

And I HATE the behringer. The MX (older) series is ok, but the UB/SL series are horrible desks, sound quality wise.

 

The yamaha, although not the best desk in the world, is pretty good for the money.

[Bobbsy]

Frankly, speaking as a sound professional, I'd rather not use either but have managed to get decent sound out of both. In terms of sound quality and features there's little to choose between them. I'd be highly surprised if you could hear any difference in a blind test (i.e. one where you couldn't see the "B" word on one of the mixers)!

 

Personally, I'd still keep the O1V though!

 

Bob

[Guest lighttech]

I have a yam 32/14 FX with a case, I belive that they are fantastic value for the price that you will pay.

 

The eq onboard each channel is not amayzing, but the ultracurve will help you shape the sound further. I use the onboard SPX all the time, which is much easier than patching an external spx. Also, you get two effects channels, which are great for overlaying two effects or applying sepererate effects to seperate channels.

 

The ultracure is a very powerfull tool, but make sure you read up on it, and use it to its full ability, because thats where you will get your moneys worth.

If you do not have much experience in parametric and dynamic eqs, why not look at purchasing a graphic eq, just a thought, but if you are a fast learner, I would go with the ultracure. It gives me something to twidle with at boring rehersals!

 

Also what brinky has said, the ulracurve does have a feedback destroyer built in, which is not that amayzing for live use, but can be very useful in a studio enviroment, especially if you have a small room, where the mics could be close to your monitors.

 

Sorry that I have only a few posts, but have made a new account as I forgot the password to my old one after a couple of months break from the blue room forums.