Tallescopes

[stormster]

I am aware the Tallescope debate will continue to go up and down and stage right to stage left for a long time, but is the recent declaration by the ambassadors groups new health and safety officer that none of its staff can be involved in moving people up a tallescope the death knell of the Tally in UK theatre????

 

I know the debate has been thrashed through on many previous threads, yet this declaration could have far reaching financial implications....is it reasonable practical?? Is it just an industry stuck in the dark ages of bad working practise or are the fears from prosecution the most important factor.

 

Surely if both working practises were Risk assessed, the risk of falling while continuously climbing would out way that of being pushed by 4 people with the outriggers on???? I know this has all been discussed yet its about to hit a large number of theatres and as such touring crews, managers and producers, I for one am interested on the final solution.

 

Not intending to ignite a further debate just interesting to see the solutions that occur.

[gareth]

the recent declaration by the ambassadors groups new health and safety officer that none of its staff can be involved in moving people up a tallescope

Clearchannel venues have had this rule for ages - many years, in fact, way before they changed their name from Apollo. The implementation of the rule, however, varied from venue to venue - ranging from absolute unwavering adherence (in the venues with jobsworth tech managers), via slightly relaxed ("Weeelllll, we can move it with you up it, but we'll have to drop the iron in case any of the management walk through the auditorium and see what we're doing!"), to not giving a stuff!

 

It'll be interesting, though, to see what the tech staff at Ambassadors venues make of the new rule - being, as it is, a brand new piece of regulation from the top level of the company, as opposed to something that's been kicking around the rule book for years and which people observe in a very loose kind of way. Are there any staff from Ambassadors venues on the BR who feel able to comment at this stage?

[Seano]

It'll be interesting, though, to see what the tech staff at Ambassadors venues make of the new rule

I'd be interested to know if the management of the Amabassadors group will expect focussing to take place in the same time, and at the same cost, as it has up to now. Of course if they're serious about not moving the tallie that would be impossible right, so have they come up with a budget for extra time, extra crew or alternative access equipment?

[Renny]

We're doomed!

[gareth]

It'll be interesting, though, to see what the tech staff at Ambassadors venues make of the new rule

I'd be interested to know if the management of the Amabassadors group will expect focussing to take place in the same time, and at the same cost, as it has up to now. Of course if they're serious about not moving the tallie that would be impossible right, so have they come up with a budget for extra time, extra crew or alternative access equipment?

Sadly (or maybe not!), now that I'm full-time at a venue I'm not really touring any more, so the chances of me visiting an Ambassadors venue in the near future are pretty slim. I think it would definitely be interesting to hear of any BR members' experiences of this new rule and how it affects their fit-up, though.

[stoketech]

working at an ambassadors venue I'm particularly interested to what happens next.

how ever I have submitted a document to the new health and safety chappy, comparing the two different ways of focusing. Lets just say that using the new way, a rig takes 3 times as long to focus than allowing the tallescope to be moved. Not to mention how knackered u get going up and down the ladder that many times.

Its far easier to fall off the ladder than out the basket!

Just waiting to see what the response to the document is now!

[Tomo]

I hope you made proper use of capitalisation and the apostrophe, and didn't use txt spk.

 

If not - you just shot yourself in the foot.

Businessmen (& women) don't take anything seriously unless it's well written, and bureaucrats are even worse.

(Why do you think it's such a difficult word to spell?)

[stoketech]

It was properly written and succinct!

and I managed to write it without any swear words.... damn pleased with myself! :D

[TeeJay]

We are another theatre that has had the 'no moving tallescopes with personnel onboard' edict passed down from our local council.

 

Though we are in meetings with BECTU, HSE, APS and so on, we aren't having much success.

 

We are looking into other forms of access and are currently trying the Skyjack 3219 scissor lift (some of us having recently gained our IPAF licenses :D )

This is the lightest SL we have been able to find (about 1200kg) and as a venue that has a sprung floor, the weight issue is rather important (particularly as if it went through the floor, it puts the understage storage, tech offices, building battery back-up and main electrical intake room (!) at risk. (we tried a Genie 3226 at first and very quickly reversed it off the floor and back out onto the street!)

 

It's working okay but even the old marley down at the moment is rippling. Gods knows what it would do to a newer dance floor. And with a 19 foot platform height, it can't reach as far as our tallescope can.

 

Has anyone had any personal experience with the Genie DPL range? Link here Specs on on the pdf at the bottom

 

It has a good height, it's lightweight and it can take 2 people on the platform which are all good points and meet our criteria. The important next question is how long does it take to raise and lower as you wouldn't be able to move it with people up it (cos of the outriggers). Has anybody used this, or does anyone now of something similar that can be moved with people up it.

 

The GR20 (details here) is another that could be useful for us except that sometimes it's the incoming company who do the focus and not many incoming companies seem to have someone with IPAF training either nationally or internationally (give it a couple of years though ...)

 

If others are in meetings regarding tallescopes, can you add it in to this thread? We may as well start collating all our attempts on this and start aiming for a unified front. Whatever solution we come up with is going to cost a lot of money (new access equipment and training, or more crew and longer focus calls to try to avoid fatigue) and receiving houses just will not be able to longer focus sessions - nor will touring companies.

 

If Will Hill is out there, what's the latest from the Norwich situation? I remember you posting for information on 'scopes some time back for work with the HSE on usage and I'm not certain I ever saw the results.

[AndrewR]

As the Lighting Tech at a receiving house I will throw in my 2p.

 

We use the JLG version of the Genie GR20, goes about 200mm lower but weighs around 100kg less. Point loading is less than the heavy leg on our D size Steinway. (we have a lovely real wood stage floor, and underfloor heating it the foyer, which both prevented us getting something bigger and heavier).

 

As a piece of equipment these things are great, yes they do make the dance floor ruck up (and its a bit scary going over the bump at 6m up!) But the fact that I can zip up to one of the lighting bars and drive along doing the focus, and it only needs me and the lighting designer is fantastic.

 

Yes its annoying that not everybody can use one, we have a number of people with IPAF licences (myself included). But most shows will accept that they have to use a venue tech to do their focus (we haven't had a problem with that) so long as you don't charge them extra for the privilege (and most shows will be expecting a venue LX for the fit-up/get-in anyway).

 

Another alternative is to put in place a system where you train visiting crew persons to use your access equipment in your venue, they don't get a licence, but you deem them competent to operate the equipment in a controlled environment.

 

Is it essential that you can put 2 people in the basket? As you have no doubt noticed it makes a huge difference to weight. And just how high are the lights you need to focus from?

 

As to fixed lifts, they will save you time and effort, but no where near as much! The fact that the one man mast lifts can be driven at full extension and will also fit down some very small corridors makes them very very useful. (The main justification for ours was for the replacement of lamps in the foyer, with its 8 meter high ceiling).

[Seano]

(some of us having recently gained our IPAF licenses :D )

... we have a number of people with IPAF licences (myself included)....

... they don't get a licence, but you deem them competent to operate the equipment in a controlled environment...

 

You've both touched on a pet hate of mine, so excuse me while I get in touch with my inner pedant for a moment:

Your IPAF card is not a licence. There is no such thing as a MEWP/scissor lift licence, nor is there any such thing as a forklift licence.

 

All that is required under law (PUWER) is that you've had some training in using the plant you're using. IPAF cards, and the various other cards like them are merely a way of providing some documentary evidence that you've had some formal training (which may or may not include an assessment of some kind).

[TeeJay]

Yes its annoying that not everybody can use one, we have a number of people with IPAF licences (myself included). But most shows will accept that they have to use a venue tech to do their focus (we haven't had a problem with that) so long as you don't charge them extra for the privilege (and most shows will be expecting a venue LX for the fit-up/get-in anyway).

Not all the companies coming in to our venue do expect a venue tech to focus - if they have been on the road for a while, it's a lot easier for them to focus as they know how it needs to look like rather than having to explain each week to a new person what it should look like. We don't also have people who can speak Spanish, French, German, Dutch, Portuguese, Italian, Japanese, Chinese (Mandarin or otherwise), Russian, you get the idea and that's since the year began. It's a lot simpler to have someone climb a ladder and stay in a basket than to have to get them to explain the focus per light. We do, of course, do the focus when required and understand common gestures (bigger, over there, not on that, etc) - I'd still think on a tight fit-up schedule that having someone who knows the show do the focus is required, or at least less stressful.

Another alternative is to put in place a system where you train visiting crew persons to use your access equipment in your venue, they don't get a licence, but you deem them competent to operate the equipment in a controlled environment.

So you saying that, though I only trained as an operator, I am now competent to be a demonstrator and teach others?

You'll excuse me if I let you test that with the HSE first :D

Besides, what happens if you don't deem them competent? :D

I'm sure it could work under the right circumstances but I feel a little dubious about this. If someone wants to prove me wrong ...

I can also see the situation where a touring LX would have lots of experience in various MEWP but no formally recognised certificate. If they were involved in an accident relating to an MEWP, they would have the challenge of proving competency

Is it essential that you can put 2 people in the basket? As you have no doubt noticed it makes a huge difference to weight. And just how high are the lights you need to focus from?

See above. Our lighting trim height varies from around 5 metres to around 12 and averages on the 7 - 9 mark. And if our venue is saying that persons require demonstrable training, such as with IPAF, then that's what we have to do in any case

(some of us having recently gained our IPAF licenses :D )

 

Your IPAF card is not a licence. There is no such thing as a MEWP/scissor lift licence, nor is there any such thing as a forklift licence.

 

All that is required under law (PUWER) is that you've had some training in using the plant you're using. IPAF cards, and the various other cards like them are merely a way of providing some documentary evidence that you've had some formal training (which may or may not include an assessment of some kind).

Fair play, I misspoke, My apologises.

 

It's interesting hearing the different viewpoints.

 

Keep them coming all y'all

[Seano]

Fair play, I misspoke, My apologises.

No worries. I just jumped on it because its one of my favourite rants at the moment. ;)

(Actually more to do with forklifts, but anyway... )

[Simon Lewis]

Your IPAF card is not a licence. There is no such thing as a MEWP/scissor lift licence, nor is there any such thing as a forklift licence.

 

Seano,

 

quite true, but the way in which our H&S bods choose to implement the requirement to demonstrate training, is the piece of paper from the training provider. The bit of paper isn't a licence per se, but many choose to treat it as such!

 

Simon

[Seano]

The bit of paper isn't a licence per se, but many choose to treat it as such!

That's exactly why its so annoying.