mumbles Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Having sat through a service at church this morning, where the radio mic on the vicar was picking up paper rustling and him breathing etc, I have been asked to suggest some ideas of how to reduce the problem. My first reaction was that a gate would be the best way forward, but I don't know if this is right. The radio mic is a TOA of some variety, (relatively old), and the current system is an amp, with 5 inputs for the 2 radio mics, and also 2 wired mics. This however will be being replaced soon, and there is a budget of a few hundred pounds. The current thinking is to have a behringer desk, such as the UB1222 fx pro, a 31 band eq (only 1 way as the speakers are all wired together), and then a gate (probably the behringer multigate XR4400), and feeding into the current amp as it is matched to the speakers and works. My main concerns are: 1 - Does the gate plug into the desk on the insert, with a stereo jack going to the gate? I think this is how it was explained to me a while ago, but aren't sure, as the gate has an input and an output on seperate gate. If someone could explain how it would be wired that would be great. 2 - For a church that has 2 services a week, how much of a problem is behringer build quality? 3 - Am I underspeccing (more likely) or overspeccing the kit, I don't want people to turn round in a years time an say "great but it doesn't do what we want it to"? Also, if anyone has any suggestions for other products to use instead, then please let me know; While the budget is quite tight, I'm sure there must be more people than Behringer producing kit for that kind of money. Thank you, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 I would suggest that the gate isn't the best way forward - some of the noise produced will be similar in level to quietly spoken words, and it's going to sound quite strange suddenly having the mic turn 'on'. I know that you could use soft gating or expansion, but that doesn't deal with the root problem. You should check correct mic placement, correct user technique (they can be hard to train!!), then consider changing the mic on the TOA, or changing the radio mic system itself. A 31 band GEQ may be of use, but unless you buy a moderately good one, they can cut out far more than is needed, leaving a poor sounding system. If your budget is restricted, then could you afford a Behringer UltraCurve Pro? It provides a bit more than just GEQ, and its front panel can be locked off. Desk wise, make sure there's someone around who is willing to operate a desk for each service - it can be very daunting to non technicians...! I prefer to use the E and M series Soundcrafts. They are quite simple, but are well screwed together, sound good, and are reasonably priced. Unfortunately, they do not match the "free with cornflakes" price range.... It may also be worth looking at the amp and speakers for future upgrades? System intelligibility can depend quite critically upon loudspeaker type and placement. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom R Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Having sat through a service at church this morning, where the radio mic on the vicar was picking up paper rustling and him breathing etc, I have been asked to suggest some ideas of how to reduce the problem. My first reaction was that a gate would be the best way forward, but I don't know if this is right. A gate would work but I am not sure its your best option. It will only cut the channel when it falls below a certain level...not necessarily what you want to do... The mic does have a windshield yea? A better radio mic would probably solve your problem!! The current thinking is to have a behringer desk, such as the UB1222 fx pro, a 31 band eq (only 1 way as the speakers are all wired together), and then a gate (probably the behringer multigate XR4400), and feeding into the current amp as it is matched to the speakers and works. Hmmm Behringer isnt great...but they arent the worst out there! 1 - Does the gate plug into the desk on the insert, with a stereo jack going to the gate? I think this is how it was explained to me a while ago, but aren't sure, as the gate has an input and an output on seperate gate. If someone could explain how it would be wired that would be great. No an insert lead is equivalent to a stereo jack desk side and 2 mono jacks gateside (in/out). Probably the easiest explanation! You are meaning putting a gate onto the mic channel not the entire output arent you? It wasnt that clear... 3 - Am I underspeccing (more likely) or overspeccing the kit, I don't want people to turn round in a years time an say "great but it doesn't do what we want it to"? Well you are Speccing Behringer :( ... but seriously - it may not be appropriate if you wanted to mic a band? Edit: Beaten by Mr Lewis ;) I will echo that Soundcraft E series is a nice desk :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumbles Posted June 25, 2006 Author Share Posted June 25, 2006 Thank you for your responses, A gate would work but I am not sure its your best option. It will only cut the channel when it falls below a certain level...not necessarily what you want to do... The mic does have a windshield yea? A better radio mic would probably solve your problem!!The noise we are trying to cut out is a lot quieter than the spoken bits, but when amplified through the church is quite noticeable, especially over the loop system. The mic came with a windshield and has had it on since I can remember. We had a sennhieser evolution lavalier systemborrowed from a friend recently for a play we were doing, and were really impressed, but these are really beyond our budget. You are meaning putting a gate onto the mic channel not the entire output arent you? It wasnt that clear...Sorry, I did mean putting seperate gates on each of the two radio mic channels. - it may not be appropriate if you wanted to mic a band?We haven't ever had to mic a band, as its an old 18th century church, so it doesn't have that kind of worship. The most we have ever needed was 4 lavalier mics and a 2 piano mics for songs during a play. For this, we have always used a small soundcraft, but I don't know which one. No an insert lead is equivalent to a stereo jack desk side and 2 mono jacks gateside (in/out).What I don't understand about this is that the stereo jack will have 3 contacts (tip, sleeve and ring), but then the 2 mono jacks will each have a sleeve and a tip. Does this mean that some connections aren't connected? or have I got the wrong end of the stick here? Thank you again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 mumbles. Please can you read the excelent article Why Churches Buy Three Sound Systems, and How You Can Buy Only One. My experience when dealing with churches are 1) Ministers are not hapy to position their lavalier microphone in a position that reduces rustle or wear a headworn mic that will give significantly better gain before feedback. 2) Churches would like a system that you switch on and works with no user intervention required. They don't realise that to get the best results out of a system you need a skilled professional to operate and react. 3) Churches are unhappy to pay a professional audio engineer. I have found a number of churches that are happy to provide their Pastoral team with stipends/salerys, they will pay their cleaners and their organists/worship leaders but expect an experienced professional to give their services for free week in week out. In answer to your question. You need a sound operator to position the microphone correctly on the minister and to ride the channel (fader or knob) when interference is picked up. You might also want to check that the cable on the lavalier is good. Pick a day when the church is empty, stand in the middle holding the transmitter in your hand. Gently excercise the connector and the cable coming out of the connector. You might also want to excercise the battery compartment. You shouldn't hear any sounds as you move your hands arround. It might be the sounds you are hearing are due to bad joints, breaks in the cable or distorted battery terminals. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumbles Posted June 25, 2006 Author Share Posted June 25, 2006 1) Ministers are not hapy to position their lavalier microphone in a position that reduces rustle or wear a headworn mic that will give significantly better gain before feedback.Likewise, we have tried a while ago to get some head worn mics, but that was felt by the vicar to be a bad idea, and couldn't be convinced. We also gave him instructions on where and how to fit the microphone to his lapel. 2) Churches would like a system that you switch on and works with no user intervention required. They don't realise that to get the best results out of a system you need a skilled professional to operate and react.We have a team of six who take it in turns to operate the "desk", and I have opped for various other venues, from conferences to band gigs. We are hoping to set the EQ on the desk for each personas and when they use the mics, and store the info on markup sheets for others to use again. The graphic EQ would be set for the building, and then left alone (I like the idea of locking the settings). The problem we have is for example in the middle of prayers, when the vicar changes page, it is noticeable, but an op can't see when he's about to do this. You might also want to check that the cable on the lavalier is good. Pick a day when the church is empty, stand in the middle holding the transmitter in your hand....Thanks, I'll try this when I get a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom R Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 What I don't understand about this is that the stereo jack will have 3 contacts (tip, sleeve and ring), but then the 2 mono jacks will each have a sleeve and a tip. Does this mean that some connections aren't connected? or have I got the wrong end of the stick here? I am sure there are many others on here who know the answer to this far better than I do but here goes. You have 2 'mono jacks' and 2 rings on the 'stereo jack' which these will coincide with. I would imagine the third would be a common ground (feel free to correct me!) You have said that when you used the Senn you got far better response...so I think that here is your problem - you dont need gates or similar - it really is just the microphone! Yes Sennheiser mics are expensive (you get what you pay for!) but it is going to be your answer - you need a better mic :D The EQ sheet idea is all fine and well until someone puts the mic in a different place and it all changes! But I would guess its the best idea for people who arent too sure what they are doing. The way that we do things is that you arent allowed to run the desk by yourself until you know about the basics of EQ, gating etc...but then again we have a full band each sunday... Other than that, turn the page more quietly :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumbles Posted June 25, 2006 Author Share Posted June 25, 2006 Thanks, had been hoping new mics wouldn't be needed due to the cost, :D oh well, will pass this on to those in charge of money Also, thanks for the reference to Why Churches Buy Three Sound Systems, and How You Can Buy Only One, it was useful to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambone Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Gently excercise the connector and the cable coming out of the connector. You might also want to excercise the battery compartment. You shouldn't hear any sounds as you move your hands arround. It might be the sounds you are hearing are due to bad joints, breaks in the cable or distorted battery terminals. Exercise or exorcise? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 What I don't understand about this is that the stereo jack will have 3 contacts (tip, sleeve and ring), but then the 2 mono jacks will each have a sleeve and a tip. Does this mean that some connections aren't connected? or have I got the wrong end of the stick here? The way inserts work: It's an unbalanced connection (in this case) so the send and receive signals only need one signal wire plus ground. They share a common ground so only three wires are needed: send, return & ground. At the desk end, the three pole jack is generally wired with tip as send, ring as return and sleeve as ground. The two two-pole jacks at the gate and are wired with signal to tip and ground to sleeve (the tip on one wire being the send and the other, the return). I'm sure there's a diagram out there that explains it more concisely but I hope this makes sense in the meantime. Shez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I'm sure there's a diagram out there that explains it more concisely... Oh there is!! Try here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumbles Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 Thanks for the diagram simon, its helped me to get me head round which pin to solder to which. Even if I'm not using a gate for the church, will be useful to know how to for future reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom R Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I'm sure there's a diagram out there that explains it more concisely... Oh there is!! Try here.... I've seen the first part of that diagram somewhere before...I cant think where... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete McCrea Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 That's one of those useful pages that gets saved somewhere safe for future reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted June 27, 2006 Share Posted June 27, 2006 Personaly I wouldn't work exactly like that drawing in some cases. Where they show a balanced to unbalanced lead they show it using single core + screen cable. This is just personal preference but I prefer to make my own cables always using two core + screen cable. I will then make off the balanced end as if it were balanced and unbalance it at the unbalanced connector end. This makes that cable slightly easier to convert later if you need a balanced cable as there is only one end to re-terminate Just my 2p James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.