Jands Vista S3 and PC based consoles

[BlueShift]

Hey Guys,

 

Im currently in the final stages of speccing out a lighting system for our church.

 

We are a lively modern church and the rig aims to accomplish a balance between theatre style tight focused states and strong vibrant rock n' pop style scenes both enhanced by movers. We probably do 70% busking and 30% stack/memory work.

 

The last major decision involves the speccing of a console. Its been an arduous process coming to this point, so I wont bore you with the details but basically a summary is as follows:

1) we dont have a large budget for a console, but we need something that is flexible

2) The fat/leap/bull frogs have all the functionality on paper, but in practice can be a pain to use - a good fallback option if budget is too tight

3) Frog 2/Pearl 2004 etc.. are all great consoles, but realistically too much money.

4) PC based control seems to have come a long way in recent years.

 

So, trying to avoid discussion about the merits of the aformentioned consoles (frogs, avo desks, etc...) except in regard to how they compare, what are people's experiences and/or thoughts of PC based control? my understanding is, if setup properly, it can be very reliable and the functionality wise its all there - but what is it like to use.

 

As far as I see it, my options are as follows:

 

Martin LightJockey

HogPC

Jands Vista S3

MagicQ

 

I know little about any of these apart from their tech specs - so what im really after is how these, or any other PC, work practically in a live environment. I am particularly interested in the Vista S3 which looks really nice and seems to be powerful to boot.

 

Any thoughts? Has anybody used, or uses the above?

[Cougar]

Personal experience is that PC based software doesn't compare to a proper desk. I haven't had reason to try any of the ones you have mentioned in a real live environment but I would think that dismissing a frog on grounds of how easy you find them to use is probably not a good reason for choosing a PC based software because I expect you will find the PC based worse (if you can persuade the powers that be get yourself a nice pearl but a fat frog or similar isn't really that bad a choice).

 

HTH

 

Evan

[BlueShift]

Firstly, the reason for shying away from a frog is not because I find it awkward to use, but more that it is not particularly flexible, definately not very expandable and the ability for our ops to be able to change from a theatre style show, to a rock n roll busk type show and a static show quickly is important to us. Our lighting rig will grow as we do and we need our console to be one step ahead.

 

I would like to try and limit this discussion to people have _ACTUALLY HAD_ hands on experience with any of the above solutions - be it a demo or a regular show tour. on paper, all of the above would fit our needs - heck I could list 20+ lighting control solutions that would operate our rig, but there are many many reasons to pick one over the other - ultimately usability is a big one, im not gonna buy a fancy desk if none of our volunteers can get the best out of it. Id rather have a smaller rig which our ops are confident in using and can really use it to its potential, than a rig full of fantastic fixtures which the ops can't get there head around controlling to the full.

 

Im not ruling out any of the desks above - im well aware of the merits and downfalls of each - but it would be unwise for me not to thoroughly explore every option...

[Ian Ferguson]

I have sent you a PM regarding Vista

[BlueShift]

Thanks ian, im using the software now and it does seem very intuitive.

[jfitzpat]

We have done a surprising volume with churches ('Houses of Worship' is the 'PC' term here in the US). Since I'm with a vendor, anything from me should be viewed as a sales pitch. But, I could give you contact information for some of our Church users so you could talk to them directly (a fair number have offered themselves up as references).

 

A production company is also putting us in to the Crystal Cathedral here in Southern California for this year's huge Easter show. Again, PM me if you'd like me to put you in touch with them to get their reasons for selecting us over other consoles/systems.

 

-jjf

[BlueShift]

I hadn't thought of the bluelite X1, its worth a look.

 

I'd just like to clarify that im not definately going down the PC based route - im merely exploring it as an option, it seems to me to have greater flexibility, but whether it has the same reliability as a 'proper' console remains to be seen.

[paulears]

As a confirmed hater of PC systems, I had a bluelite x1 for 3 months last year and it is very good - even better now because there are different versions and hardware choices that are cheaper and don't have to have the 4 universes.

 

If you fancy a pearl, and with it the avo operating system, how about one of their smaller controls - price wise quite a bit cheaper.

[johnhuson]

Unless there has been a huge price shift, by the time you factor in the cost of a decent PC (which has to be a consideration for a fair comparison) the Vista PC with the S3 wing comes in around the same cost as a brand new Avolites Pearl 2004.

 

As much as I love the Vista and the way it works, if your doing 70% busking then personally I would go for the Pearl. I'm prepared to be shot down in flames for this comment, but as someone who spends a lot of time busking shows an Avolites console wins hands down every time!

 

That isn't to say that the Vista isn't buskable, thats one of the first things I asked when I saw one, and it is buskable. But for raw hands on and fast operation then it's an Avolites console me!

[BlueShift]

Thanks for all the comments so far!

 

paulears, jfitzpat: Having spent a while with the software, the BlueLite X1 looks great... if we were doing mostly theatre oriented stuff with not much busking. It just doesnt have the rapid fire accessibility of some of the other options.

 

Johnhuson: For our application, The pearl lists at £6400 and the vista at £3720 (£3000 for console, £720 for 1 universe output - which is all we'd need). even after factoring in a good PC, its still less than £4700 which is a good £1.5k cheaper than the pearl - thats serious money for us. I totally see your point though, at our festival (for which your guys did the power distro; say hi to kevin for me!) last year I used a pearl 2004 and it was great but the only downsides it has for our application in the church is:

1 - Rubbish theatre stack

2 - Cost

3 - Very difficult to re-patch for the average user

to be honest though, I'd probably be getting one of those if money was no object, but I think id actually end up going for a Frog 2.

 

Thanks for all the input so far, its good for me to be able to evaluate this option as a possibility.

In designing this system for the church, reliability, flexibility and ease of use are the 3 big concerns - as I've previously mentioned, id rather take out some great fixtures if it made for a much more user friendly system because thats what we need right now. We're constantly changing, expanding into new things and so having a console that grows with us is important. The thing that attracts me to many of these PC systems is that ability. Sure, a console like the Frog 2 gives us that - but for some more money. With the vista or light jockey or whatever, I can buy the basic package now and add more inputs and outputs as we grow.

 

Anyways, as ive said before, no decisions have been made, I just think its wise to explore all the options. After all, the church medium is quite different to your average show - we combine corporate presentation, rock and pop and theatre all into the same package - sometimes all within the same few hours! Added to that we have multiple lighting 'zones' (cafe's, foyers, etc...) so something that can be able to react as quick as we move on is key...

[Tomo]

Well, from your list:

 

Martin Lightjockey - This is a nightclub desk. I really don't think it's suitable for you.

 

HogPC - Very powerful, fairly reliable, easy to learn the basics but you have to be aware that it is a tracking desk.

 

Vista S3 - I really like this desk, but have never had the chance to use one in anger. The only disadvantage I can see for one of these is that it uses a completely different paradigm to everything else on the market.

I doubt this will be the case for very long though, as it's a beautiful concept - if nothing else, multipart cues are a doddle on a Vista, and are a bodge on everything else I've used.

 

MagicQ - No comment, never used it or seen it in proper action.

 

Whatever you get:

Make sure you get wings. A screen-based interface is clumsy at best.

Run it on Windows XP and never let it see the internet, or have anything else installed on it.

- Windows 2000 is NOT suitable as it has very poor USB support - last time I used a HogPC it ran on Win2K and it 'lost' the DMX dongles on a regular basis, and the wings fairly often.

[johnhuson]

Hi Chris,

 

Hadn't even noticed you were from Soul Survivor until you posted last message, will certainly pass on your regards.

 

Johnhuson: For our application, The pearl lists at £6400 and the vista at £3720 (£3000 for console, £720 for 1 universe output - which is all we'd need). even after factoring in a good PC, its still less than £4700 which is a good £1.5k cheaper than the pearl - thats serious money for us.

 

Anyway to get back to the post, your figures certainly add up, but to compare like for like which is only fair. The Pearl is a 4 universe console and an S3 with a 2K dongle and a decent PC comes to around £6000-£6500 at list so difference isn't that much. I appreciate that you only need 1 Universe but I'm just throwing options into the pot. Should you decide to upgrade to a larger dongle in a couple of years is it such good value?

 

last year I used a pearl 2004 and it was great but the only downsides it has for our application in the church is:

1 - Rubbish theatre stack

 

Can't argue with that at all but you say you do 70% busking is that so much of a problem?

 

3 - Very difficult to re-patch for the average user

 

Curious about this one, can't see why the Pearl is difficult to patch, certainly no harder than any other console on the market that I've used.

 

to be honest though, I'd probably be getting one of those if money was no object, but I think id actually end up going for a Frog 2.

 

Haven't used the Frog 2 in anger so can't really comment but I have to say I'm not a huge fan of the Frog 1 range of working, though it is great value for money.

 

The Frog 2 does seem to work on a Hog style of programming and I guess if your used to that then it's as workable as a Pearl for busking, but at that price break (virtually identical!) I would still go for a Pearl. That's unless I was doing in excess of 50% cue stack operation. If I were doing that much stacked work then I would look at ETC consoles as well.

 

Just my personal opinion by the way. Although it sounds like I work for Avolites, I have no business connections to them, I just grew up with their desks and really like them for the work I'm in!

[BlueShift]

Thanks John, I really appreciate your input - im well aware your not on the avo payroll despite your avatar :)

 

I do see your point about the cue stacking - my problem as, as you will understand, the majority of users of this system will be completely new to it. I dont want to get a desk that can only do 70% of our work, for this kind of money I should be able to get one that does 100% - of course, not without compromise, but even so. Im not averted to avo stuff at all - I quite like it, I jst want to make sure I look at all the options - pretty much everyone ive spoken to has barely even listened to our requirments before the word pearl comes out of their mouth which is terribly irritating because it appears they dont understand our medium. Dont get me wrong, im not saying that of you - all your comments have been great and well reasoned, I just dont want to get a pearl because its a pearl, I only want to get it if its right for us...

 

I see your point about ubgradability - the thing I think about the pearl, and all current desks in that league (bar the frog 2) is that they are built atop old technology, which is going to start disappearing with consoles like the vista, the congo, the frog 2 appearing all over the place - I dont want to be caught in that boat.

 

The pearl is still on the cards, I like it for what it is and I use when when I can - im just not sure its a perfect match for us.

 

Tomo: Thanks for that - good tips there. I had indeed intended to run any PC based desk on a stripped down install of winxp, utterly isolated from our network.

I agree with you, I like the vista's way of doing things - definately worth a demo I think....

 

Thanks guys, really appreciate the comments

 

EDIT: John: a little OT, but do you guys do electrical install work - we need to re-do our technical mains... PM me if you guys do this kind of work...

[dbuckley]

If you're doing 70% busking get a desk.

 

I'm a very strong poroponent of PC based lighting control, but your needs are not a great fit to where the strength of PC products are.

 

Theres only two rerasons to consider using a PC lighting product, (a) you're a cheapskate, and think a PC will do what a proper desk will do for less money, in which case you're in for a rude awakening, or (b) you want to go beyond what a desk does or does easily.

 

Systems with wings can help you get a PC back to where a desk is though.

[BlueShift]

Yeah, I agree completely dbuckley

 

However, I think particularly with the vista based system, that you are getting a lot more - firstly, the 'wing' (s3 console) has all the playback and programming functionality of most larger format desks, plus you're taking advantage of the newer technology. The flexibility angle though, is the one that keeps me most interested.

 

Good to hear everyone's feedback

 

Thanks

 

Chris