New small FOH mixer

[dosxuk]

We're looking at replacing our now antiquated Soundcraft Delta 12 channel board with either a Soundcraft GB4 (16 channel) or Behringer DDX3216. We would need to be able to do monitors from this board too, which looks simple on the GB4, but slightly more difficult on the Behringer.

 

So, what I would like to know is if anyone has had any experience of using these desks, and what their opinion of them is. The GB4 is a bit more expensive than the DDX, but is it better value for money.

 

We already have an effect rack containing EQ, Effects, Gates & Comps which will work straight out with the GB4. We also have a 32 channel Soundcraft K2, effects rack + 32 channel Soundcraft SM12 for larger gigs, we're after a compact easy to use mixer here for when we don't want to get the biggy's out.

 

So, what d'ya think?!

 

James

[mr_towers]

I guess this comes down to whether you wish to go digital or analogue. I personally prefer the ergonomics of analogue on smaller gigs. I mean, when you've got a large amount of channels to worry about and stuff it's good to have the digital control (I use a PM5d on our bigger gigs!), but when I've used smaller mixers on smaller gigs I've found it a bit much.

 

I personally say go for the GB4. It's nice and easy to work with, and I quite like the redesigned pre amps! Good sound :biggrin: .

 

Hope we get some more opinions on this!

 

Merry Christmas! :)

 

Jonathan

[J Pearce]

I'd rather have a half decent analogue desk than a reasnoable digital desk, especially if I had a FX rack to go with the system.

 

A mate of mine regularly uses a DDX3216, its a good little desk, but I find the AD and DA converters a touch harsh.

 

I have never used a GB4, so I can't help there.

[ChrisD]

AVOID the Behringer desk at ALL COSTS. It's horrible, nasty, noisy, badly designed, poorly engineered, there's substandard parts and, in my experience, it takes ages to get problems sorted. I bought one of these about 6 months ago. It took 4 - 6 weeks to get here, then weird stuff started happening. I won't give you the entire sob story but the case was becoming raised above ground, the preamps were noisy as anything, the LCD screen wasn't very nice, the headphone output didn't work etc etc.

 

I would avoid them at all cost, along with most other Behringer mixers.

 

GB4 all the way. Or possibly an Allen and Heath GL or ML or PA series?

[J Pearce]

Thats interesting you say that, most reports I have heard on this desk have been good, but I have heard the odd horror story.

 

Pay less, get lower quality control...

[Mr.Si]

Er, I think these desks are in different leagues! ;)

 

I've used the GB8 before, which is just like the GB4 but bigger - it's a good desk

 

Personally, I'd get the GB4 and I'd say you should too. - but that's only my opinion.

 

Si

[J Pearce]

They are in different leagues Simon, its like comapring a cheap eastern moving light to an ETC profile.

 

I still reccommend the GB4.

[audio]

Hmmm, having used a DDX, running monitors isn't the easiest thing, and for a small gig it would possibly be easier touring a small analogue desk because soundcheck times are reduced, GEQs are easy to get at in your rack etc. What about an old 01v or something similar, auxes very easy to use on those beastys, and I bet a secondhand one is about as reliable as a new behringer... ;) (as an asside, it must surely be possible for behringer to adapt the desk so that aux levels are set on the faders for each aux like on yamaha desks? can't be much to it really, a bit of code here and there? life would be much easier then ;) )

 

However, it depends how important transport is to you... I mean, you can carry a DDX quite easily, and it fits into little spaces, but for a GB4 you are looking at a two person lift, before you add another two person lift for the outboard rack, more FOH space required, probably about four times as much transport space - more cabling to do before soundchecking can start etc...

[paulears]

The other thing of course is that without expansion, you haven't got a huge amount of mic inputs - so some extra cost for convertors is needed. I'd have no qualms about the Behringer desk, just the old digital issues about layered operation on a reduced fader set. My old Yamaha 03 was great, but a total pain for more complex shows - monitors always awkward - like as in fading in an input source, while needing to keep a hand on the foldback.

[Bobbsy]

Having been using more digital mixers than analogue for the past 18 months or so, I'm thoroughly sold on the concept and have found that most of the fears and criticisms of digital boards go away with experience. For example, I can toggle layers on a DM1000 or DM2000 faster than I could move from one end to the other of a 32-48 channel analogue board. Frankly, I find the operational advantages the digital boards give me far outweigh the drawbacks.

 

As for the Behringer board itself, I've not used it as much as the Yamaha range, but when I have had my hands on one I've found it easy to use and amazing value for money. I know a number of people who own the DDX3216 and they are all happy with them and have had no problems with reliability or quality.

 

In this particular case though the choice is not totally clear cut. Normally, the presence in a digital board of most of the outboard you could possibly want is a major selling point. However, since the OP already has a well-equipped outboard rack, you can't factor this in.

 

I'd say a big part of the choice is going to come down to "who will be using the board?". If this is a receiving house with a constant stream of new operators coming through, then reluctantly I might suggest sticking with analogue. However, if there would be a small number of regular ops who can take the time to learn the board, then I'd say go digital. The convenience of presets and automation plus the great flexibility of routing present in digital boards open up all sorts of possibilities you might not even think of until you start using one.

 

Bob

[ghance]

my 2p's worth would be to avoid the behringer.. have used one once and didn't like it - never again. noisy, harsh, poor eq, fiddly etc etc.

 

you say small desk.. if you're looking for 19" rack at a reasonable price then I'd say allen & mix wizard 16:2 FX is a cracking little desk for the money. or if you must have 16ch and must have sub groups the mackie onyx 1640 is worth a look.

 

or if you're leaning to digital, then it has to be a yamaha 01v 96 with a cheap ADAT interface to get the channel count up.. something like the behringer ADA8000 or focurite octopre le. the yamaha is something worth learning.. once you get to know the 01v function buttons & menu layout their bigger desks seem kind of familiar (apart from the M7CL).

 

spike

 

ops.. forgot to say.. DDX or GB4??.. the GB4 most definitely. but have a look at the other mentioned.

[paulears]

don't get me wrong - I'm a serious digital user - BUT, given a desk with a fader available all the time just works. I'm very happy when I can do something like a band mix, and hide it on another layer. The snag I always seem to have is in assigning sources to faders, it should work, and to be fair, it's just me not planning properly, but I always end up with a vital one on each of two layers, one needs to go up, one needs to go down. my old 03 had outputs dedicated to certain faders, so you couldn't increase a send master if you were riding faders on the top layer. Obviously you can go out, then in again on a top level fader, but that does complicate things even more.

[dosxuk]

Thanks for you thoughts guys!

 

A little more info, we're a students union, and this is for our 'small' live system based on a 4K Cerwin Vega PA. We use it for small bands, 'second' bands (where we have one room with the big desks, and this in the second room), comedy, ceildih, PAs, corporate do's, so the automation would be fairly good, which leans me towards the digital route.

 

However, being a students union, we're constantly having to teach new people how to use the gear, as well as let outside crew come and use it. And because of the size of our venue, especially with bands, their engineers are normally totally blown away with anything which doesn't have the amp built in, which then leads me towards the simpler (to start out on / understand) analogue route.

 

On the portability front it probably makes very little difference. We have to pack the entire PA, multicore, cabling, desk, etc up and down for every event, so we already need the two people in to lift the desk. The effects rack is only a one person lift though (only 9U). The furthest this desk is likely to go is out to the car park outside for the outdoor 'festival' 'organised' by student volunteering.

 

We already have a range of other small mixers (DJ mixers, Spirit rackpaks, Notepad) so we're not after small and very portable, we need a desk which fits nicely between the rackpak and our 32 channel K2. We've looked at Allen & Heath (and we use them for all our DJ mixers), but we have always used Soundcraft kit in the past, and all of our current gear is Soundcraft. Also, looking at their brochures, they don't seem to have any desks currently which look as 'nice' as the GB4 with matching features. Open to suggestions though.

 

It seems most people on here would get the GB4. I think if they were the same cost, we would just go for it, but being a students union... I have noticed that most of the reviews I found on the internet said the DDX was good value for money with lots of features for the price, which most of you seem to agree with.

 

Any more thoughts?

 

James

[Bobbsy]

The other thing of course is that without expansion, you haven't got a huge amount of mic inputs - so some extra cost for convertors is needed. I'd have no qualms about the Behringer desk, just the old digital issues about layered operation on a reduced fader set. My old Yamaha 03 was great, but a total pain for more complex shows - monitors always awkward - like as in fading in an input source, while needing to keep a hand on the foldback.

 

I've used an 03D in a video editing suite but never tried it live...and don't think I'd want to! If nothing else, the lack of an individual solo button on each channel was a major drawback!

 

Fortunately, the UI for digital mixers has come on in leaps and bounds since the 03, to the level where I personally would choose digital over a large analogue board for the vast majority of my uses. (Worth saying here most of my work is theatre or corpororate, so lots of planning tends to be possible...and automation is important to me). I don't think the Behringer is as clever interface-wise as the Yamahas...but it's not bad either.

 

However...in THIS application with lots of partially trained users...I fear analogue may be the way to go. Just don't ask me to lift it! ;)

 

Bob

[audio]

Hmmmm,

I just spec'd a DDX for my old school's upgrade, as I figured that in the coming years digital is going to be more and more popular and people who work with it from a young age will be able to use it well and be comfortable. In a school environment like my old school, there are never more that four or five techs and there is lots of time to train them up in the desk's usage.

However, if your SU is anything like ours, you will have people working the equipment who are totally useless at sound, and really shouldn't be employed to do what they do! maybe in this situation, analogue is the better choice... the desk will work if they push the faders up and down without really understanding - and probably more durable to withstand being dropped, bumped, bashed etc.

(we also have an engineer who enjoys looking at red lights (I think?) and therefore constantly clips the preamps - with digital this can sound very harsh...whereas with the analogue desk he uses he gets away with it)

HTH

John