What desk for med size generics + intelligents

[BlueShift]

Hey guys,

 

Im in the process of pondering a new lighting rig which is for a church, and so the budget is fairly tight.

 

It is a 3 way split system comprising of a large main rig with some much much smaller satellite systems.

 

we are all clear on the functionality needed and so we have narrowed it down to around 36 channels of generics for the main system as well as between 3 and 8 colorchangers and perhaps 4 movers (if budget allows)

 

the 1st satellite will be made up of 8 small LED units as well as some white downlighters so probably ending up on 8-32 channels of DMX (depending on the level of control needed)

 

the second will be 16 par 56 cans and perhaps a color changer or two.

 

the smaller satellite units will be controlled by anytronics anyscene wall controllers.

 

The plan is to have a desk for the main rig that has control of all satellite systems and the main system. so we need around 40-48 channels of generic control as well as control of around 12 intelligent fixtures initially but with expansion capabilities up to around 20 intelligent fixtures.

 

The desk will be used by a range of people. some of whom will be beginners, some of whom will be much more adept and so user friendliness is important. Also programming should be fairly easy - but this is not so key because those who will be actually programming the desk will have no problems.

The main thing is that the budget is tight - with around 3000 GBP being the limit. a VDU would be nice but not necessary

Although id love a pearl, we could definately only afford a second hand one.

 

Contenders I have looked at are:

Zero88 leap frog

Zero88 bull frog

Avolites Azure 2000 shadow

reconditioned pearl 2000 (if I can get one for 3k)

 

so my question is - what do you guys think in terms of control? any other desks you'd consider?

 

the leap frog obviously would keep us well within the budget and does everything and is pretty simple.

the bull frog is much pricier but gives us more room for expansion (although im not sure we will get extra generics)

the azure shadow has a great spec - far beyond any frogs but I wonder at its ease of use for the novice user. also pricey

a good condition pearl 2000 would be great - but not cheap. A VDU would be nice too...

 

any comments much appreciated

 

Cheers

[andystone]

You have outlined what you need to control, but not how you want to do it i.e. program everything as a cue stack, maybe run off SMPTE or MIDI or go to the other extreme and run it all manually off submasters.

 

If you have a wide range of people using it, some not experienced, then the Frog range is definitely a good bet, worth also having a look at the Compulite Dlite (especially as we are the UK Distributor), it might be slightly out of your price range, but offers everything from basic manual two preset manual control with timed masters and flash buttons through 20 submasters up to a proper crossfade playback with split faders and a GO button. More info on our web site www.compulite.co.uk.

 

Also worth checking out is the Jands range, at the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference - and price!

[BlueShift]

You have outlined what you need to control, but not how you want to do it i.e. program everything as a cue stack, maybe run off SMPTE or MIDI or go to the other extreme and run it all manually off submasters.

 

If you have a wide range of people using it, some not experienced, then the Frog range is definitely a good bet, worth also having a look at the Compulite Dlite (especially as we are the UK Distributor), it might be slightly out of your price range, but offers everything from basic manual two preset manual control with timed masters and flash buttons through 20 submasters up to a proper crossfade playback with split faders and a GO button. More info on our web site www.compulite.co.uk.

 

Also worth checking out is the Jands range, at the end of the day it all comes down to personal preference - and price!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

thanks for the comments andystone

 

the control will be done purely on submasters however it wont be busking like mad it will be more of just subtle changes every few minutes as the service progresses.

 

there will be little or no theaterstacking normally, but id love a desk that can do this reasonably well so that the option is there.

 

I will take a look at the compulite stuff and the jands range.

 

also does anyone have any comments on the azure?

 

Cheers

[merlin24]

In the Jands range, have a look at the Event 408, Use the following link JANDS

 

If you have any questions you can contact me at AC lighting via the email address below.

 

Kind Regards

 

Andy

[BlueShift]

In the Jands range, have a look at the Event 408, Use the following link JANDS

 

If you have any questions you can contact me at AC lighting via the email address below.

 

Kind Regards

 

Andy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was jast looking at that as an alternative right now actually - its at the upper end of our pricerange but seems to do everything we want in quite a nice package!

 

Anyone else have any comments on the 408 or any other desks?

[KindredHyperion]

My main problem with the 408 is the lack of submasters - it only has eight. Also the cuestack isn't wonderful either - it's basically like a manually progressed chase on a submaster.

 

ML control is excellent though, with support for up to 60 moving fixtures or scrollers.

 

The Leapfrog and Bullfrog are great as mid-range desks - although they don't have the greatest feature set in the world, they have loads of subs (20x12 I think) and are very easy to use.

 

The disadvantage with both of these desks is that they don't have any internal storage or USB functionality - you have to save stuff on floppies.

 

You could also look at the Strand 300 - it's more complicated than the others but at the same time much more powerful. It has an internal hard drive and USB (so you can save shows on a USB key). It also supports a mouse or trackball for ML control which you may or may not find easier to use.

 

HTH

 

Adam

[BlueShift]

My main problem with the 408 is the lack of submasters - it only has eight. Also the cuestack isn't wonderful either - it's basically like a manually progressed chase on a submaster.

 

ML control is excellent though, with support for up to 60 moving fixtures or scrollers.

 

The Leapfrog and Bullfrog are great as mid-range desks - although they don't have the greatest feature set in the world, they have loads of subs (20x12 I think) and are very easy to use.

 

The disadvantage with both of these desks is that they don't have any internal storage or USB functionality - you have to save stuff on floppies.

 

You could also look at the Strand 300 - it's more complicated than the others but at the same time much more powerful. It has an internal hard drive and USB (so you can save shows on a USB key). It also supports a mouse or trackball for ML control which you may or may not find easier to use.

 

HTH

 

Adam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for your input Adam!

 

I agree the 8 submasters is gonna be a big limitation - are there not multiple pages of 8? (the website I unclear)

 

The zero88 desks are good value and good at what they do - how is the video display on them?

 

The strand 300 looks good but is pricey and is much more theater orientated - I really need a rock 'n' roll oriented desk which has some theater capabilities - the leap frog seems to fit the bill here?

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[Mystic]

If you look for a rock'n'roll desk, go for an Avo pearl. But it takes time to find a good deal on an used one, however it is possible (I found mine at 3000 euros in good shape) but be carefull to test it deepaly before buying as some people sell worn out desks...

[Chris_R]

Whenever our church has needed to hire anything, we've always gone for a Fat Frog. Dead easy to use (had a very basic "show" programmed within about 30mins!) and does everything we need. Loads of subs (as mentioned) and good generic and intelligent control.

I've never used the video display on the frog range "live" but on the Phantom Frog it looks good and I've heard its a lot easier to use with the video output.

Both the Pearl and Frog have offline editors which may be useful to you.

There's currently a Avolites Pearl going on Ebay (here) apparently needs a service though (and slightly over your budget).

 

Hope this helps

 

Moderation: Link Fixed

[KindredHyperion]

I agree the 8 submasters is gonna be a big limitation - are there not multiple pages of 8? (the website I unclear)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope, just the eight. This is what put me off it when I was considering it for an install.

The zero88 desks are good value and good at what they do - how is the video display on them?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not bad. I'm not so keen on the way everything is orientated around the cuestack though - to record a sub you have to record to the cuestack first then copy it to a sub. That's just me though. There are only two views availiable as far as I remember - the cuestack and the preview window (showing all the channels).

 

Try it out for yourself - you can download the PhantomFrog (a frog simulator) here.

The strand 300 looks good but is pricey and is much more theater orientated - I really need a rock 'n' roll oriented desk which has some theater capabilities - the leap frog seems to fit the bill here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I like the 300 because of the multi-user capabilities - useful in a school to stop random people using it! ;) It may not be what you're looking for though.

 

My advice is to get in touch with your supplier, or with Zero88 and get a demo, get them to lend you the desk for a day, so you can have a play and find out if you like it. It's all down to operating style really, and whether you like operating it.

 

HTH,

 

Adam

[merlin24]

I agree the 8 submasters is gonna be a big limitation - are there not multiple pages of 8? (the website I unclear)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope, just the eight. This is what put me off it when I was considering it for an install.)

 

 

Adam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Adam,

As the Official Jands distributor and central European support for the Jands range I can assure you the Event 408 does not have just 8 submasters it has a possible 20, 8 you can change pages on giving you at least 792 over 99 pages.

As posted in other threads on this very subject, the subs on this console are also multifunctional.

 

Kind Regards

Andy

[KindredHyperion]

Oh, apologies for my misunderstanding.

 

Is that using all the channel faders as submasters?

[Brian]

Oh, apologies for my misunderstanding.

 

Is that using all the channel faders as submasters?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IIRC from the demo Andy gave me at the AC North show, you can assign the bottom right bank of 12 channel faders to be an additional 12 subs - making the 20 in total he mentions above.

[BlueShift]

Oh, apologies for my misunderstanding.

 

Is that using all the channel faders as submasters?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IIRC from the demo Andy gave me at the AC North show, you can assign the bottom right bank of 12 channel faders to be an additional 12 subs - making the 20 in total he mentions above.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I assume this is at the cost of 12 control channels for dimmers and the like?

[KindredHyperion]

If you're using the desk in wide mode to control 48 channels of dimming then yes, you will not have faders to control those channels directly. However, this does not mean you cannot use them. You can still program those channels into submasters before you assign the submasters to the channel faders.

 

I think that's right, anyway.

 

Adam