Small DMX Desk

[Stu]

Hi Guys & Gals

 

I'm looking to get a small lighting desk that I can use on small scale shows that can do Moving Lights, Scrollers and Normal Generic Channels. I've been looking at the Fat Frog (24/48, with 12 moving lights), but I was wondering if there was anything else in the price and function range. I've used the Axiom 48/96 before for rigs of normal and moving lights, but it really wasn't quite as good as it could/should have been.

 

Any ideas anyone? All suggestions welcomed.

 

Stu

[Paul J Need]

Hi Guys & Gals

 

I'm looking to get a small lighting desk that I can use on small scale shows that can do Moving Lights, Scrollers and Normal Generic Channels. I've been looking at the Fat Frog (24/48, with 12 moving lights

Gareth hates them........ but for the price I love the Fat Frog! I really don;t think there is anything else which comes close for othe money.

 

24 Preset focuses

 

So easy to edit, add text, run a chase as a cue, auto follow ons, ......... only this morning was doing a job using 12 channels of dimmers, and 6 moving lights - managed to get it all pre plot inside of 20 minutes ready for othe ACTUALy plotting session on Tuesday...... Its great!

 

My money is with Zero - yes it is a small mans Pearl - but by god its so easy to get to grips with.

 

(Waiting for the slagging off of Zero from Gareth now )

[gareth]

Gareth hates them........ but for the price I love the Fat Frog! I really don;t think there is anything else which comes close for othe money.

 

24 Preset focuses

 

So easy to edit, add text, run a chase as a cue, auto follow ons, ......... only this morning was doing a job using 12 channels of dimmers, and 6 moving lights - managed to get it all pre plot inside of 20 minutes ready for othe ACTUALy plotting session on Tuesday...... Its great!

 

My money is with Zero - yes it is a small mans Pearl - but by god its so easy to get to grips with.

 

(Waiting for the slagging off of Zero from Gareth now  )

I think my views on Fat Frogs are perfectly well know for me to not need to reitterate them here. :ph34r: If you really want to know, e-mail me!

 

And let me just make quite clear that it's not just an irrational hatred of all things Frog - there are many things about the Frog range that I really don't like, for very sound operation reasons. Having said that, though, I've heard that there has been much re-writing of software over the last year or so, which may well have ironed out many of the problems. But you can't make a numeric keypad appear just by rewriting the code. :blink:

 

Stu, when you say small, how small do you mean? If you mean very small (e.g. never more than 48 dimmers and half a dozen moving lights, with only a few hundered pounds to spend) I think you might be pushed.

 

If your budget allows for a bit more than that, you have many more options - there's the Strand 300 series (I bet Paul just groaned when he read that!) for one. Or what about a Jands Hog? Or a Pearl? Or if you fancy pushing the boat out a bit, get yourself a laptop, a Hog DMX Widget, and a couple of Hog 3 wings?

 

Or you could just give me a call, and get a quote for the hire of my new WholeHog 2 ... but more on that later, ladies and gentlemen ... :(

[Bryson]

But you can't make a numeric keypad appear just by rewriting the code.    :blink: ....

 

Stu, when you say small, how small do you mean? If you mean very small (e.g. never more than 48 dimmers and half a dozen moving lights, with only a few hundered pounds to spend) I think you might be pushed.....

 

If your budget allows for a bit more than that, you have many more options - there's the Strand 300 series (I bet Paul just groaned when he read that!) for one. Or what about a Jands Hog? Or a Pearl? ....

 

Or you could just give me a call, and get a quote for the hire of my new WholeHog 2 ... but more on that later, ladies and gentlemen ...  :ph34r:

You could make a numeric keypad appear by adding an external one - like the 300 series trackball..not sure if the Frog hardware would failiate that, but it could be worth thinking about.

 

I think Stu was talking purchase, not hire (am I right Stu?) - If so, then the price difference is very important..The Fat Frog, at 2k is a good grand cheaper than anything else comparable. If you can go up to 3kish - the Azure shadow is worth considering in that kind of price area, too. (Not the basic Azure, though..)

 

 

Gareth - You've bought a WholeHog? Nice... B)

[gareth]

Gareth - You've bought a WholeHog?  Nice... B)

Yup. Remember the one that Mark Ninnim posted for sale just before Xmas?

 

I'm picking it up the week after next, shortly after which it will be available for hire, either with operator or "dry hire" (although the second option won't be available to just any old tom, dick or harry - you'll have to at least have some idea of what you're doing with it before I let you get your hands on it!). Full details and rates will be posted on my WWW site in due course, but suffice to say the rates are going to be very competitive, and it'll be available ither as 'console only', or as a full system including external monitors, 24 extra masters on an external desk (guess why I bought the 200!!), and any extra data distro required.

 

More later, Hog fans - watch this space!

[Paul J Need]

I've heard that there has been much re-writing of software over the last year or so, which may well have ironed out many of the problems. But you can't make a numeric keypad appear just by rewriting the code.   

Perhaps you should actually use one Gareth instead of trying for commission sales from Strand???!!! :blink: (you know thats a joke right?)

 

Here speaks a chap (Me that is) who has used M24's, Galaxy's, GSX, Sirius, Hog 1 and 2, Jands Hog, Celco, Pearl etc for plotting moving lights. But the brief from Stu was no more than 48 dimmers and half a dozen movers. THE FAT FROG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wins! for budget!!!!

 

 

I think Zero are up to version 8.2 now for the software, and you main point seems to be the lack of a numerical keypad...... what do you actually need one for........ with the aid of a QWERTY keyboard. something even the Hog users for inputing text etc, on the Fat frog you simply type "15 ENTER" and you jump to that Cue. Editing is also a peice of cake, in partial Program mode probably easier than a Pearl to mod.

 

I go along with the previous message., for less than £2,000 - its a snip!

[gareth]

I think Zero are up to version 8.2 now for the software, and you main point seems to be the lack of a numerical keypad...... what do you actually need one for........ with the aid of a QWERTY keyboard. something even the Hog users for inputing text etc, on the Fat frog you simply type "15 ENTER" and you jump to that Cue.  Editing is also a peice of cake, in partial Program mode probably easier than a Pearl to mod.

In my defence, on the one occasion I used a Fat Frog to program a show, an external keyboard was not an option. The only way to enter numbers was multiple presses of + and -. This was the main reason why it almost ended up getting lobbed off the top of the flytower. If you can now use an external keyboard for direct numeric entry, then that's my main gripe dealt with. Well done, Zero chaps. (Bloody hell, I'll be saying I quite like them next! )

[Bryson]

I think Zero are up to version 8.2 now for the software, and you main point seems to be the lack of a numerical keypad...... what do you actually need one for........ with the aid of a QWERTY keyboard. something even the Hog users for inputing text etc, on the Fat frog you simply type "15 ENTER" and you jump to that Cue.  

I think what Gareth wants is the ability to type 15 thru 25 @ 60 (or whatever) But surely that would be reasonably trivial a feature to add if you have a qwerty keybaord already - just relabel the * as @ and the / as thru, mod the software a bit and you're away...surely?

 

Or is that what it does anyway?

[Paul J Need]

I think Zero are up to version 8.2 now for the software, and you main point seems to be the lack of a numerical keypad...... what do you actually need one for........ with the aid of a QWERTY keyboard. something even the Hog users for inputing text etc, on the Fat frog you simply type "15 ENTER" and you jump to that Cue.  

I think what Gareth wants is the ability to type 15 thru 25 @ 60 (or whatever) But surely that would be reasonably trivial a feature to add if you have a qwerty keybaord already - just relabel the * as @ and the / as thru, mod the software a bit and you're away...surely?

 

Or is that what it does anyway?

It works in pretty much the same way as a Pearl - and I mean (IT ONLY HAS 48 DIMMER CHANNELS) - you reach over - pop up the channel on the old fashion faderS....... and press programme....... surely that is faster than typing 1 + 5 + 8 + 11 THRU 15 + 22 + 32 + 33 +35 +40 @ 4 @ 5 @ 6 (OH BUGGER I DIDN'T WANT TO SELECT 22).......typing 1 + 5 + 8 + 11 THRU 15 + 22 + 32 + 33 +35 +40 @ 6

[Bryson]

It works in pretty much the same way as a Pearl - and I mean (IT ONLY HAS 48 DIMMER CHANNELS) - you reach over - pop up the channel on the old fashion faderS....... and press programme.......  surely that is faster than typing 1 + 5 + 8 + 11 THRU 15 + 22 + 32 + 33 +35 +40 @ 4 @ 5 @ 6 (OH BUGGER I DIDN'T WANT TO SELECT 22).......typing 1 + 5 + 8 + 11 THRU 15 + 22 + 32 + 33 +35 +40 @ 6 

I don't agree - even with just 48 channels. I can type very fast on our 430, ceratinly much faster than I can move faders. 1 THRU 48 @ 3 for a rig test...much faster than pushing each fader up a bit.

 

But anyway, my point was, why can't you do either? I'm not a programmer, but surely that mod would be quite easy.

[Stu]

Chaps,

 

Don't start fighting on my account! I think 2k really would be my limit (I can go halves with a friend which would make my outlay 1k or so), I'm looking for a desk that is the most flexiable for the price, and I would have thought that the Fat Frog would be the best one out there to fit the description. I'm just looking to use it for small scale theatre, musicals and gigs, most of the time in those situations I'd be using Mac 300 or 600's for colour washing etc, so I think that the Frog would be ideal.

 

Trying to find some work to use it with is a totally different story mind, but it doesn't stop me looking!

 

Stu

[Paul J Need]

I don't agree - even with just 48 channels.  I can type very fast on our 430, ceratinly much faster than I can move faders.  1 THRU 48 @ 3 for a rig test...much faster than pushing each fader up a bit.

 

But anyway, my point was, why can't you do either?  I'm not a programmer, but surely that mod would be quite easy.

I too can type something like 50 channels a minute !!! But.... my point is do you actually need a keypad... if you group as you would on a conventional desk say a Strand 530, and you do all your preperation before you start plotting, your preset focus, your groups, you will find yourself only using the occasional single channel fader to bring up specials etc. Are you saying its faster to bring up all the Blue Backlight on a keypad rather than a submaster?.

[Bryson]

Are you saying its faster to bring up all the Blue Backlight on a  keypad rather than a submaster?.

No, I guess not. It all really depends on the type of gig you're doing. At my full-time job I use a Jands Event for gigs and if we ever have movers (which is rarely, to be honest) and a 430 (soon to have it's guts ripped out and turned into a 530..kind of) for theatre. Basically, they'll both do both jobs, but are more suited to the way round that I use them... When I design, I do tend to tweak each channel individually from a rough starting point, to move emphasis, so I do prefer a keypad (and wheel!) for that. For rock and roll it's more a case of "all of that, and none of that, and some of those" so nice broad strokes are great.

 

PS: Paul - just noticed you have some of the new Robe movers - how are you finding them?

 

 

PPS: If whoever moderates this forum fancies playing with the split threads function, now might be the time to do so...

[Guest lightnix]

Getting back to the original subject...

 

If budget is really an issue, then it's probably the Fat Frog. Otherwise go for the Azure Shadow or try to find a 2nd hand Pearl 2000. Now that the 2004 is out, there may be a few going cheap(er).

 

And don't forget: it's not about the technology, it's about the lighting. Just because you have the latest Nikon SLR doesn't mean you will take better pictures than you did with your old pocket camera.

[Paul J Need]

Hi Bryson,

 

WE all have our own way of working with kit. I understand fully what you mean as I do what you do when using a theatre desk and using a wheel if it has one - I was "brought up" on Strand from the Mini II, Duet, Lightset, MMS, M80 etc. So until relatively recently...... say 10 years I was an argent Strand Fan.... its' what I knew best so was comfortable with the process of plotting on them.

 

Because I am from a theatre background - I light the "theatre way" if you get my drift..... so cannot get my head around the theatre stack system of the pearl for example. And as I actually use moving lights move for theatre than for rock n roll......... the frog actually works the way I want to work.. more so than a Pearl. .... I've probably gone off track again...... maybe its time to get an early night.

 

On the question about the Robes.......... I think they are fab. Access inside is great, gobo changing is far better than Martin........ Ok a Robe 250 and Mac 250 is not a VL2200 but at less than £1200 each a snip. My only dislike about the spot version is NO CMY colour mixing - the wash light has it though. Reports coming back from people hiring them are saying them prefer them to the MAC250+ Also. Oh..... and about £600 cheaper.