£4000 What to buy?

[chris999998]

I'm looking into a new PA for my school with a budget of around £4000, which would be ex-vat as school doesn't have to pay it. I hope to get a bit more money if I can justify it, which, as with most things, I'll have a go!

 

So, a few questions...

 

1- Does anyone have any idea what Thomann own brand products are like?

Specifically, the XLR/XLR cables, Spkn/Spkn Cables, DC1500 Drum kit set, EM900 condensers, MB-75 instrument mics, connectors (XLR and Jack), M12e monitors, S100 amps and millennium mic stands which are sold by Thomann.

 

2- Do you think it's worth the extra £20 for SM58s as opposed to the cheaper PG58s?

 

3- Has anyone used the Behringer MX9000 desk? I'd love to get an A&H but I'd also like to get the mics, stands and so forth which prohibits this, I'm mainly gearing my choices to having the kit for our big sound gig which involves standard rock band-y stuff, choirs, piano, other instruments, hence the large proportion of budget on mics, including the wireless ones required in the spec.

 

3- What does anyone think of feedback destroyers? - the behringer DSP1124P (feedback destroyer pro), I've a mate who swears by his, but I've also heard the sorts of "feedback destroyer? grrrrrrr" comments, which leaves me a tad confused.

 

4- What does anyone think of the Yamaha AX15s as high/mid speakers with SW118Vs as subs?

 

5- Finally, is there any 'killer' kit which I haven't thought about for a school situation? The only thing I haven't so far listed here which I've included is a Numark dual CD player.

 

Thanks in advance, your help is gratefully recieved,

 

Chris

[Russ]

1- Does anyone have any idea what Thomann own brand products are like?

Specifically, the XLR/XLR cables, Spkn/Spkn Cables, DC1500 Drum kit set, EM900 condensers, MB-75 instrument mics, connectors (XLR and Jack), M12e monitors, S100 amps and millennium mic stands which are sold by Thomann. 

Variable - in terms of durability, I wouldn't rate any of them for heavy use (XLR cables especially look and feel cheap). The mics are ok but nothing particularly special.

 

2- Do you think it's worth the extra £20 for SM58s as opposed to the cheaper PG58s?

I'm indifferent on this one. Get as much as you can afford. The SM58 is better, though.

 

3- Has anyone used the Behringer MX9000 desk? I'd love to get an A&H but I'd also like to get the mics, stands and so forth which prohibits this, I'm mainly gearing my choices to having the kit for our big sound gig which involves standard rock band-y stuff, choirs, piano, other instruments, hence the large proportion of budget on mics, including the wireless ones required in the spec.

Yes, it's an...interesting desk. It's designed for recording, and so the layout is odd and somewhat unintuitive. It feels cheap. Also I always get confused as to which channel the PFL buttons refer to.

 

Note that if you really can't spend any more, there's the Behringer 3282A which is cheaper than the MX9000 and has a more logical layout for live sound, at the expense of the meterbridge (which you probably don't need). Yamaha also do some decent cheap live mixers. Remember that all of them are cheap and by definition they will break more often.

 

Soundcraft are a bit better for a bit more money: they're pretty much the standard for "budget" 8-bus mixers, I suppose anything below that is "ultra-budget" :D.

 

3- What does anyone think of feedback destroyers? - the behringer DSP1124P (feedback destroyer pro), I've a mate who swears by his, but I've also heard the sorts of "feedback destroyer? grrrrrrr" comments, which leaves me a tad confused.

Depends a lot on your situation. I've used the Behringer UltraCurve quite a bit and I find it quite useful. They don't work live though, especially in a theatre setup. You have to let the feedback get terrifyingly loud before it will pick it up.

 

They are useful for identifying and notching out the feedback frequencies beforehand though, although in a properly laid out system that's not usually necessary anyway.

Hence, mixed feelings. The UltraCurve itself is a decent bit of kit - it gives me something to fiddle about with during boring rehearsals, but I think you're better off spending your money on a decent analogue EQ than on the feedback destroyer only.

 

5- Finally, is there any 'killer' kit which I haven't thought about for a school situation? The only thing I haven't so far listed here which I've included is a Numark dual CD player.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like I said, you didn't mention a standard graphic EQ - it's more important than a feedback destroyer.

[Mr.Si]

1.

I have an MX9000 (because I learnt live sound on its predecessor, the MX8000A).

 

I use if for both recording and live - but the desk does have a fair amount of leakage - play a CD through a system, turn the faders completely down, you'll probably hear the song faintly. Mute the channels and it is not a complete mute. Also, the Meterbridge doesn't seem to speak properly - the channel inputs are saying one thing, and the groups and main outs say another thing - usually a much higher level - unless of course this is dB addition/combining (eg 40dB + 40dB = 43dB).

 

Don't get me wrong - I love the desk, and for the price it's very good.

 

I personally like the layout, but I'm used to it as I learned on it.

 

What about the Spirit LX7 desks? they're good for live use and probably more respected too. I think they are similar in price to the MX9000.

 

2.

I'd go SM58 if I were you - they're the industry standard live vocal mic for many reasons - they are very very rugged and are able to take a lot of abuse - Rock Vocalists are known to through their mics around and drop them on the floor etc - you need that kind of toughness in a school situation, as there will be the potential for a lot of abuse.

Also, it's good to think long term. (Even when on a budget).

 

3.

Mic Cables - I'd go to somewhere like VDC and buy reels of 100m (depending on how much you need) and also Neutrik XLR Connectors.

 

Cables are a weak link - and probably the most susceptible to being broken.

VDC sell brill quality Van-Damme mic cable at a cheap price - probably half that of maplin and Farnell - and they're british, whereas Thomann are over the water in a German speaking land called germany - which is much further away.

 

4.

Yeah, the Feedback destroyer - I was put off buying one of these by a fellow engineer when he said that because they're on a search and destroy philosophy, they will at times cut noticable chunks out of the frequency spectrum - which is not a good thing, even if it stops the feedback.

Ultra Curve would be better - I have one of the previous 2U models, but they've got a new version out which we use at work (Acoustic Consultancy) and it is really nice and slimline too (only 1U).

[Russ]

2.

I'd go SM58 if I were you - they're the industry standard live vocal mic for many reasons - they are very very rugged and are able to take a lot of abuse - Rock Vocalists are known to through their mics around and drop them on the floor etc - you need that kind of toughness in a school situation, as there will be the potential for a lot of abuse.

Also, it's good to think long term. (Even when on a budget).

 

Yeah, the PG58 looks a bit more tacky to me.

 

3.

Mic Cables - I'd go to somewhere like VDC and buy reels of 100m (depending on how much you need) and also Neutrik XLR Connectors.

 

Cables are a weak link - and probably the most susceptible to being broken.

VDC sell brill quality Van-Damme mic cable at a cheap price - probably half that of maplin and Farnell - and they're british, whereas Thomann are over the water in a German speaking land called germany - which is much further away.

 

Agreed, the Van Damme/Neutrik stuff is the way to go. The Thomann stuff is about half the price though (but for a reason, obviously).

 

Depends on how you're using it though, if you're just sticking the cable down the back of a rack in an installation for ever, then the Thomann stuff is fine. If it's being rigged and derigged daily, the Thomann stuff will last about a week. As I mentioned before, it's also a to coil.

 

I wouldn't consider doing mic cable yourself unless you're hideously bored, it really is tedious and works out to less than the minimum wage in savings, unless you're very speedy at soldering.

 

4.

Yeah, the Feedback destroyer - I was put off buying one of these by a fellow engineer when he said that because they're on a search and destroy philosophy, they will at times cut noticable chunks out of the frequency spectrum - which is not a good thing, even if it stops the feedback.

Ultra Curve would be better - I have one of the previous 2U models, but they've got a new version out which we use at work (Acoustic Consultancy) and it is really nice and slimline too (only 1U).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Like I said, I've only used the UltraCurve myself, and you can make it auto-detect to start with - which is hideously scary: it plays an evil clicking noise then cranks the gain up and picks off the harmonics one by one just before you reach for the fader to stop it deafening you/blowing the speakers... Strangely satisfying though. Once it's got the frequencies in, you can tweak them manually, which is generally how I use it. The on-line feedback detection tends to pick up people who can actually sing.

 

You get mixed results with radio mic feedback though, because it tends to vary depending on the wearer's position.

[bassman]

1.

Again to echo the point just made, go for decent quality branded cable with Neutrik cables as being used in a school situation inevitably means that the kit will take a hammering and need to be strong! VDC also sell ready made cables as do Studiospares which are not unreasonable prices to save you the effort of making them. Mic stands, again beware of buying ultra-cheap versions, they are often made of less than solid materials rather than being all metal affairs like K&M or Beyer versions.

 

The s-100 amp would be no good for the M12e speakers as it only chucks out 65W into 8 ohms, you would need a more powerful amp for these...

 

3.

For an extra couple of hundred quid you could get something like the Allen & Heath PA28 which is a solidly built desk with dare I say it better spec and sound quality. Or, put up with a few less channels and get the PA20-CP which also has two 500W amps in it for the FOH PA. Allen & Heath also give great tech support via their network of dealers and are based in the UK.

 

Finally, I have always gone with the theory that it is better to buy less better quality equipment rather than buy lots of cheapy stuff that will have a shorter life span, particularly in an educational environment. I work with schools quite a lot so I have seen it happen on numerous occasions...

 

Check and see if the £4000 is ex or inc vat as it could reduce your shopping list by £600 if it is inc VAT!

 

Hope this helps

 

S

[ChrisD]

Mute the channels and it is not a complete mute.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

'pologies, I have my Blue Room pedant t-shirt on today. I have, in the past, been lead to believe that a "mute" button does not necesarrily have to reduce the noise level to 0dB, it merely has to reduce it by XdB.

 

Please someone correct me if I am wrong as I have a whole line of pedants who I wish to correct :D

[dbuckley]

I have, in the past, been lead to believe that a "mute" button does not necesarrily have to reduce the noise level to 0dB, it merely has to reduce it by XdB. 

 

Isn't reducing level by XdB a "dim" button? As often seen on control room out??

 

I'd expect a mute button to reduce the level to minus infinity. Of course, I'm bound to be dissapointed, as that would require a very impressive crosstalk number...!

[Brian]

I have, in the past, been lead to believe that a "mute" button does not necesarrily have to reduce the noise level to 0dB, it merely has to reduce it by XdB. 

The word 'mute' can be used to refer to something that softens or muffles the sound - the bit that gets stuck up the end of a trumpet is after all called a 'mute' (no, not that end the other one - that's a musician stuck up the other end).

 

But on an audio mixed it is meant to completely remove the source from the mix.

[Russ]

I have, in the past, been lead to believe that a "mute" button does not necesarrily have to reduce the noise level to 0dB, it merely has to reduce it by XdB. 

The word 'mute' can be used to refer to something that softens or muffles the sound - the bit that gets stuck up the end of a trumpet is after all called a 'mute' (no, not that end the other one - that's a musician stuck up the other end).

 

But on an audio mixed it is meant to completely remove the source from the mix.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd be rather pissed off if I'd just spent £20k on a mixer and the mute/off buttons had anything less than 120dB attenuation... The only times I've seen noticable crosstalk was on £1000 price level desks such as the aforementioned Behringer and an old Spirit 8, and I think that's pretty much unexcusable these days since I've seen (heard, I suppose) £100 mixers with no crosstalk at all.

[chris999998]

The s-100 amp would be no good for the M12e speakers as it only chucks out 65W into 8 ohms, you would need a more powerful amp for these...

 

3.

For an extra couple of hundred quid you could get something like the Allen & Heath PA28 which is a solidly built desk with dare I say it better spec and sound quality.  Or, put up with a few less channels and get the PA20-CP which also has two 500W amps in it for the FOH PA.  Allen & Heath also give great tech support via their network of dealers and are based in the UK.

 

Check and see if the £4000 is ex or inc vat as it could reduce your shopping list by £600 if it is inc VAT!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought the s100 was rated for more than that, 100 watts at 4ohms, I can't claim to understand these figures entirely, however I'll be having a look in my physics books soon.

 

I'd be interested to know what anyone thinks about powered mixers, I've only used the yamaha EMX88s which was lovely, however in this situation I'd like to be setting up something which can be upgraded easily, and with the added assurance that if the desk dies the amps don't die with it, not to mention I'd like to be able to plug in a different desk (our Soundcraft LX7, or take the desk and use it with different amps and speaker systems etc.

 

The budget is definitely ex VAT and as I said hopefully I'll be able to get some more money for a better system, especially since our Parents' Association are pretty active (I have to set up a PA system for them every couplke of weeks!)

 

I've had a quick look and it seems that I'd be able to get the A&H cheaper than direct from them, which would make it much more viable.

 

Thanks, and if anyone has any more comments I'd be really grateful for your help.

 

Chris

[Darkfold]

Dont get a combination of amp and mixer unless it has unamplified outputs for at least 4 mixes. We have one at school and it be a complete waste of time as it is limited to 3 outputs direct from the amp (Left, Right, Sub) and two unbalanced outputs supposedly for foldback. A real pain in the arse, as although the desk is quite nice to mix on live, you are severely limited in what you can do (no foldbacks), and as our music dept. is finding, if one amp output (the left one) goes AWOL, you're stuffed. At least it has good mute (about 100dB attenuation)

[bassman]

Most speakers are rated at 8 ohms and to add confusion, the first specs normally given for an amplifier's output are at 4 ohms. The S100 is rated at 100W into a 4 ohm load and 65W into an 8 ohm load (per channel).

 

While I accept that powered mixers have not always had the best reputation, the ones coming to market nowadays are built a lot more solidly and are more reliable. I guess the advantages of having a powered mixer over a passive version are convenience, everything is in one box, plus some of them come with perfectly acceptable onboard effects processors.

 

Many desks also allow fairly flexible routing of the signals within the console so you don't necessarily have to use the onboard amps should there be a problem or if you simply don't want to! Certainly on the A&H PA series, the main, aux and foldback outputs are all balanced, even if they do use TRS jacks in some cases rather than XLRs...

 

S

[J Pearce]

I have used the LX7 for a number of school shows, and find it is well laid out and that the crosstalk is negligible even when running a 1k PA at full whack. If you afford it I would recommend getting it instead of the behringer. College has one in the studio and its always breaking down. (dead channels, no phantom power, aux master pots not working properly). The behringer stuff is cheap; because it is built with cheap components and not tested properly. Soundcraft is the next step up, then mackie or A&H. Haven't used the yamaha desks so I don't know where they sit in that quality scale.

[tomchennells]

be open minded ! there is so many good makes out there to choose from

 

yamaha are making some excellent mixing desks for the price at the moment altho they wont rival something like a spirit

 

but in your budget id go for something like a yamaha mg 16/6 which is about 200 quid

 

sm58s deffinatly over the cheaper plastic little brothers they will last alot longer and there is a slight noticiability in better sound, however if your budgets really tight look at the senheiser wired mics, they do some cheap ones that are solidly built and sound almost as good as the shures

(we all know senny make better radio mics tho :huh: )

 

have a look at something like turbosound speakers, the new ones sound really good, never been a big fan but the new range is very budget concious and high quality (the 12" ones are good for flying)

 

and you cant beat something sturdy like a qsc amp, but if budgets wont stretch- again try yamaha

 

I have all my leads made up for me by a mate so try find a genious with a soldering iron order some gear from neutrik (XLRs etc) and 100m of balanced mic cable and away you go !

 

best of luck with the new systym - tom

[Just Some Bloke]

1 + 2: For school situations you really must try not to be selfish. Cheap stuff will give you lots of toys to play with which will be fine for the next year. But when someone else takes over your role next year things will start to go wrong and by the following year you may find that half of what you bought doesn't work properly any more. I'd always go with rugged. That means SM58s and decent mic leads (personally I've always used Canford Audio Starquad cable which stands up very well to being thrown around). These will last well into the years to come (if you can avoid them being knicked!). Maybe aim to buy 2 good mics this year and another 2 next year rather than 3 less good ones this year.

 

On the subject of things being pinched, I can recommend the old favourite trick of marking everything with two bands of different coloured PVC tape. Chose colours that no-one else around you uses and mark everything the same. Although it would be very easy just to remove the tape and claim the item is yours, you'll be surprised how little people think of that! It has a definite deterent effect and if you catch someone trying it on by quickly stuffing one in the wrong box at the end of the night, then a quick glance at the coloured tape bands will instantly prove they've made a "mistake". Cables should be marked both ends so it's quick to see and even if one mark comes off, the other end is still labelled.

 

3 (b). By the way, had you noticed that you have 2 question 3s? Anyway on the subject of the Behringer feedback destroyers, yes I have used these and they certainly do have a place. I wouldn't ever use them unless there's a proven need. Don't just put them in before listening to the sound in the room first. But if you're struggling with multi-frequency feedback that's being a right pain in the proverbial, then they "do what it says on the tin" if set up correctly. Find a time when others have gone to lunch and make the feedback happen one frequency at a time and they will remove it. Most of the time you can get the overall sound not to appear to have great holes in it because the cuts are so precise, and even if it does change the sound slightly then if it's on monitors that doesn't really matter too much if it means that the singer can hear themselves.