Darkfold Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 I have the unenviable position of being told to 'fix it'. My school has decided that an upgrade to its existing kit is in order, and I have a budget of £2500-£4000 (depending on how well I argue) Hall Size: Approx 10m wide by 30m long Installed so far: Two wired 4*15amp wall bars at about 2.5m from the ground and space for 8 lanterns on each.A curtains system with two lectriflex wired bars with 6 15 amp sockets each running across the narrow back area. Unfortunately this never really gets used as the space is needed for backstage. Also, a large amount of SINGLE phase power (for the size of hall). No dedicated dimmers (would like to get some) two power 'in' points, one at the front of the hall with 4*32 amp and one at the back with 63amps. Currently they have 6 fresnels and two profile zooms (no idea what make) They would like a board that can run chases and I would like to go digital as it allows for more interesting equipment hire. We have an analogue Tempus 18 and a couple of 6channel dual socket 10amp per channel power packs. Lights need to be able to cover the middle area of the hall (6m by 15m) as this is the main acting area with seating along both sides but not behind the curtain area, as this gets taken over as a back stage and a white backcloth is hung. I want to be able to light the backcloth from behind with floods but they need to be independant of each other. The lectriflex bars all terminate as plug ends in the rear area of the hall but the actual cable is hidden in the walls... (damn). Thats it. I would appreciate some suggestions as to what I should buy ie. fresnels or PAR cans and model names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 First off - do you have a place which is secure, and able to store everything and able to hold a patch panel/heap of leads that will plug into the dimmers. From what I have gathered you have basically a set of black's that you hang at the back of your performing area and a couple of bars. My old school which I did the purchasing for had a budget of au$5k to do it - about £2000, if that. What we had was basically a set of floods, a couple of par cans and a few fresnels, with an analouge dimmer and board. For the 5k, I managed to get: a 12 channel digital dimmer, a digital desk (brand escapes me), 5 zoom profiles, 4 fresnels and a followspot. When you are doing a school, it really does not matter about brands. Simple as that. What really matters is usability, especially if you have to teach people how to use it!!!!. We bought 2 lx bars to add to the 3 existing, and basically taped 20m extension leads very carefully (and not winding them about the bar!!!) along the bars, then we ran them through some pipe shaped like a wide [ which was made for electrical wiring (they use them in a lot of offices for data cables), having them come down into the store cupboard which held the dimmer rack. The DMX cable was run before each performance, through a small hole in the top of the door. I would make sure wherever you put your dimmer is well ventilated though - and that there are no paints etc around. We arrived just under budget. Make sure you mention you are a school to EVERY supplier you purchase from. I think we saved about $700 that way, at least, and in AU (at least), we came in at $4,926, but at the end of the financial year, $447 was given back by the tax man, and we used that money to buy a good set of gels and a gobos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.A. Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 In my school, we have a whole barrage of fresnels (Mostly the remains of a rather old set of furse [model unknown!] fresnels, we also have some CCT Minuettes), 5/6 Profile Spots (again, CCT minuette), and 6 500W Floods (again, old furse ones which appear to have no model number). These seem to do the job fairly well - granted, we can't do anything really fancy, but the fresnels provide us with a great way to give general light everywhere (with enough of them you can create 3-4 full colour washes so you can mix different colours); the Floods are great for raising the overall light level and lighting scenery; and the profile spots can accenuate specific performers/areas. If I had a bit of a budget I might be tempted to go for some parcans too. It's probably worth saying at this point that I'm not a big fan of the CCT Minuette Profiles. Even when they're very close and at a very tight angle to the spot I want them to cover, they generate an absolutely massive beam, compared to other brands we've hired in from time to time. We have a Sirius 48 board (from Zero 88), which I get on with pretty well. It's fairly cheap, and very easy to use. It has memory functions (static and chase), and also can be used as a "manual" board, as it has 2 full sets of preset faders and master faders. We also have a couple of very old eltec "manual" boards which are great for assemblies, small shows etc... As a final note, check out www.usedlighting.co.uk . They deal in 2nd hand lighting equipment, we've used them several times and they're pretty good - you might get some bargains! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Simple advice - Spend the money on infrastructure first. It's easy to hire in a couple of lanterns for a one off production - but not rig a lighting position, or install a socket outlets where you really need them......... plan plan plan!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Start with your drama needs, how flexible do you want to be? Then you can plan where the bars are to hang, then where the wires run. A secure store and patch bay follow then look at lanterns PAR cans are cheap and practical. Getting the fixed structure to standard (LOLER PUWER and 16th Edition) with safe access for work should be your first priority. Then it is as safe as can be for the inevitable student misuse. Economy PAR 56s are £25 in the disco trade inc lamp (300W). There are all the usual suspects for ex-hire and end of line and second user kit, but til the planning and structure is ready .........Even plan for things like the hooks and bonds for lanterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkfold Posted April 24, 2005 Author Share Posted April 24, 2005 I was looking into the multi-par's shown on www.theelectronicsshop.co.uk as they can hold the HPL575 lamps and have multiple lenses for flexibility. Has anyone got any experience with these? any known problems? Will I need to fit safety mesh in front of the lamp?As far as quantity goes, I was thinking 12 of these with 6 spare lamps, giving me a total cost of £873(ish) not including postage. Do you think its worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Foster Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Simple advice - Spend the money on infrastructure first. It's easy to hire in a couple of lanterns for a one off production - but not rig a lighting position, or install a socket outlets where you really need them......... plan plan plan!!!<{POST_SNAPBACK}> To give you some idea, my school had a refit 2 years ago that cost IIRC around £48K. Around £45k of that went on infrastructure, and a few lanterns were bought with the little bit left over. As others have said, make sure all the wiring/rigging is safe and up to date, you have a decent power supply, bars in the right place etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkfold Posted April 24, 2005 Author Share Posted April 24, 2005 What would you consider a decent power supply? Three phase is out of the question as the elec supply company won't do it for us... Something about not wanting to give a bunch of kids that much power... We have bars in the places I would like them (but you can never have too many right?) Is socaplex or lectriflex better for running power? your thoughts please before I buy one or the other. Our pre installed type is not important as it is permanent. What type of dimmers should I look into on this basis, there is room to put a standard rack up in a secure room in the hall) Which companies make good rack systems that would be suitable? Or should I give up on racks and get some Betapack2's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam.henderson Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 From what I have seen Socapex seems to be more 'industry standard'. But I 'spose if its a hardwired system straight from IWB's to the dimmers and you won't be adding in hired componants it doesn't really matter. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 You say in your Personal Profile that you've relied on the RCD's before. Start there and get the wiring to 16th edition and all the existing stuff PATested and cleaned, You must plan to support all these luminaires from somewhere and safety bond them and access them for re gelling/lamping. The existing analog packs can, once tested, be used via a demux if you go DMX (fixed or mobile). 63 amps would be IMO a bare minimum 100a much more useable! Three phase is no value as you won't have rotating machines and the supply co are happy to send you single phase. The line to line fault current on 3ph is high also there remains the risk of a l-l connection where a l-n was intended. - You dont need 3ph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 What would you consider a decent power supply? Three phase is out of the question as the elec supply company won't do it for us... Something about not wanting to give a bunch of kids that much power... It is not the electricity companies decision to make - that and the fact that there is nearly no way in hell you can power a decent show using single phase (in AU, a standard circuit is 10A @ 240V, giving a total of 2400 watts, that is a single CHANNEL on your average dimmer). I can also almost guarantee that the school would have existing 3-phase - for the heating etc. Hell, my school of 500 had 3 publicaly accessible 3phase points that could be used. We have bars in the places I would like them (but you can never have too many right?) Is socaplex or lectriflex better for running power? your thoughts please before I buy one or the other. Our pre installed type is not important as it is permanent. What type of dimmers should I look into on this basis, there is room to put a standard rack up in a secure room in the hall) Which companies make good rack systems that would be suitable? Or should I give up on racks and get some Betapack2's<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hell if you can only get single phase you may as well just buy a few quad packs, a hell of a lot cheaper, and you don't need a separate desk, and re-patching cos you cannot power the number of lights you need is really simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Ferguson Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 I have to agree that you should concentrate on the infrastructure. It is much more likely that there will be money found for hire of equipment for a production or for the purchase of one or two lanterns than that funds will become available again to install another lighting bar or mains supply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emj Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 A some of local authority insist that students up to the age of 18 are unable to plug 3phase supplies. So that may be the reason you would need to speak to the LEA about this you do not need to use three phase to run big show. It just depends on how the power is managed Em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 I was looking into the multi-par's shown on www.theelectronicsshop.co.uk as they can hold the HPL575 lamps and have multiple lenses for flexibility. Has anyone got any experience with these? any known problems? Will I need to fit safety mesh in front of the lamp?As far as quantity goes, I was thinking 12 of these with 6 spare lamps, giving me a total cost of £873(ish) not including postage. Do you think its worth it?<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I bought 8 of the Eurolite version of these just before Christmas from Thomann (£46.29 at thomann vs £56.22 at theelectronicshop inc VAT) and they're great. The HPL575s give great light output for less power utilisation and the choice of lenses is helpful. If cosmetics matter, as they do in our church installation, the MultiPars are a lot more discrete than longnose PAR64s. Thomann's MultiPars come a gel frame with safety mesh. Don't forget to buy the tool that lets you easily remove the lenses, you'll regret it if you don't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallPaul Posted April 25, 2005 Share Posted April 25, 2005 If there is a problem with having additional power installed on safety grounds perhaps it is worth having dimmers permanantly installed instead of plugging in portable dimmer packs. I think it is definately right to go down the route of infrastructure first, if you have the money to spend now, go with that then think about lamps on a project-by project basis. Other things to think about include access. If you are having lighting bars installed do you have a safe means of getting to them? You'd be surprised what a lot of small venues are lacking. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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