alternate board to avolites azure

[zetist]

Hi,

Trimmed my huge post down ;)

 

 

So recently I want to works towards the direction of only buying compact gear. I will need to rent all the larger items on tour. So a smallish but powerful console is really the first thing I need to buy, then master.

 

Here is my price range:

(in USD)

$6500-$8000, For very modern, stable, and have lots of life cycle left product

$5000-$6500, Something I will not need to replace for 3+ years

$3500-$6500, Something that will still have 60% value if I want to sell it in 1 year (pretty sure azure shadow can be sold still for over $3000 a year from now)

$1000-$3500, anything that meets the below requirements here would be great:

 

20 or more direct switches, that when pressed trigger a layer of sequences (the removes most if not all boards below $2000, and several even in the $7000 range) (max 10 layers is fine)

 

has sound input, preferably multi band, or a method of input timing info from external source that is tightly integrated and can be used by different different running sequences separately. (this removes the smartfade ML sadly)

 

Controls at least 24 movers, (the easy part)

 

Does not need to be effectively restarted in order to doing programing while busking a show

 

The very least number of softkey sequences as possible, I want to be able to not look at the board much at all once I really know it. I don't mind buying different shape bump things to put on keys, etc.

 

The last item is the hardest, I have read manual after manual, and most boards will not allow me to make permanent programs while at the same time allowing me to respond to events during a show. I am not even sure the azure really does this right.

 

Example:

I am in the middle of slowly programing a chase during a rather boring part of song, I am twiddling with a group of movers to find the look I like, and added that as a step, in the middle of this a I start to hear a new much more interesting song starting to get mixed in. I want to be able to blind the chase I am working on in the programmer, and start mashing on some playback switches, maybe some faders, but mostly switches for quick effect changes.

 

Right away it will get used for:

16, 18 channel movers (at a club I work at)

2 4 channel color LED blinders

8, very simple scans

4, 5 or 8 channel lasers

4 atomics

4 8 channel rollers

 

Later I will need about 800 channels, and 40 fixtures max

I will never use this board to run a play, or any other production that I have weeks to prepare for. Having time to get or create personality files is the extent of preparation before the event starts as the time before the show will be spent doing anything that requires me to be on a ladder, I often reposition fixtures during a show if they can be reached safely, that said every event I do has the first few hours as mostly waiting for the crowd to arrive and the locals to have fun playing on a much larger sound system then they normally have the chance to.

 

My big gripes with the avolites azure shadow, in order:

 

Toward end of life cycle, looking at what they have released, it would not surprise me if the released something that truly supersedes it, there are recent and very good (different tap sync dividers per chase, amazing powerful feature release rather recently in firmware update) firmware updates, but how likely is that to keep happening?

 

Not a huge fan base, the Pearl people vocal and also those I identify with the most, and Hog crowd just being huge.

 

Not modern, displays are late 90's esq, 720k floppy only, no USB anything, processing power would not really allow xtra play back wings ext.

 

Neat things about the azure that applies to me and likely almost no one else -> Ability to expand its busking ability by emulating a graphics tab (serial is so easy to figure out!) so that I can add more buttons, faders, maybe ad a small touch pad to do nudging.

 

Why not a pearl?

Triggering chase layers by fader is fine, but really a switch will do for my purposes. The Azure has 50 while the pearl has only 15, I know about pages, but there is the whole issue if something is left ON on page 1 you can't use an item in the same position in page 2. With 15 this could be an issue, with 50 its not really such a problem. I might work with 2 pages on typical night, and the overlap issues would be rare.

 

Maybe I misunderstand how a pearl works, but what happens when you flip the switch from RUN -> program and back? this clears anything running right? So full programing features need to be used before a show not during. Only some programming features can be done during. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Also I found a azure shadow that someone wants to sell me for $4150, this seems a fair price and I think it will take me a couple years to outgrow the azure, and that it will still have good resell value in one or two years.

 

Thanks for any input! Please feel free to only address part of my quest, I know my post is huge!

 

I am rather new at lighting (2 years, 50 shows), and don't have the experience of most of you guys on this forum!

 

Edited down a page or so :blink:

[niclights]

Without being biased, I honestly think you are best staying with Avo.

 

Your application is clearly busking/quick programming/easy edit oriented. This is how I operate & I also make heavy use of blind mode functions. (You can switch in and out of program mode with no effect on playback)

I have looked into what the alternatives have to offer but I am not convinced any do the job so convincingly. Also you are already familiar with them.

 

However it is true that the Azure is at the end of its life, as is the Pearl (albeit refreshed with USB support on 2008).

 

If you could stretch budget then I feel the Expert would be perfect for you - All new USB based hardware running on Intel/XP OS gives great 'future-proofing' with 20 playbacks and more buttons. All tactile and keeping your eyes on the stage. Additionally the spilt roller (including split roller page change buttons) gives more options with pages.

[gareth]

They may or may not be right for you, but you should check out Chamsys - http://www.chamsys.co.uk/. The PC solutions (perhaps even an MQ50) would be at about the right price point for you, I think. Add an external touchscreen and you're on the way. The beauty of Chamsys kit is that you can make it work in exactly the way you want. For example, you mentioned needing 50 or so faderless playbacks for quick access - the hardware doesn't give you this, but just set yourself up an Execute display with the stuff you want on as many soft-buttons as you want, and busk away. You can download the MagicQ PC software from the Chamsys site for free - give it a go and see what you think.

[zetist]

Hi Nic,

 

I can't afford the expert at $15k (found this price for unit used 6 times) at $11k I could (I made an offer in case they might take it) Also its just a tiny bit bigger, which is not good. I do agree that the change in hardware is worth the extra money and likely the size too. I just can't afford it at $15k which is already discounted for being used.

 

The Tiger I am not as sure on the price but the 5 less playbacks hurt, having them on the side is just not the same. Choping the top row of faders off is fine with me but not the playbacks, though I do understand why it was done, since it need to clear up more space so it could fit in small FOH. If the tiger was on modern hardware, that would be a fairly easy choice desipite the playback loss, it supports usb but that's it for change from 2004.

 

The pearl being able to switch in and out of program without playback affect really help me understand why the board is so popular. It makes sense why most users would want a pearl over an azure.

 

Have you used both the azure much? I don't think paying the premium for 2004 faders and knobs makes sense with my budget limits, so I would be getting a pearl 2000 upgraded to 2008 soft, or paying for the boris 3 upgrades so that I can get 2008 and usb on it. I have looked around quite a bit and I am pretty much certain that this is going to cost $7k if I am very lucky, and $8k more likely.

 

The azure is almost half the price, but I am stuck with 720k disk, forever. Is there a performance difference between the borris motherboard revisions? The azure firmware indicates boris 3 board support, is this for any other reason other then just being able to use the same spare parts with the azure since the borris 2 is no longer made?

 

I think that spending 4.2k now and mastering some avo-foo will serve me well.

 

I am looking to find a rental in Denver, CO, USA. If anyone knows of anyone with one in this area I would really like the contact info.

 

Thanks again nic!

 

Without being biased, I honestly think you are best staying with Avo.

 

Your application is clearly busking/quick programming/easy edit oriented. This is how I operate & I also make heavy use of blind mode functions. (You can switch in and out of program mode with no effect on playback)

I have looked into what the alternatives have to offer but I am not convinced any do the job so convincingly. Also you are already familiar with them.

 

However it is true that the Azure is at the end of its life, as is the Pearl (albeit refreshed with USB support on 2008).

 

If you could stretch budget then I feel the Expert would be perfect for you - All new USB based hardware running on Intel/XP OS gives great 'future-proofing' with 20 playbacks and more buttons. All tactile and keeping your eyes on the stage. Additionally the spilt roller (including split roller page change buttons) gives more options with pages.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Hi Gareth,

 

I looked at the magicQ extensivly, and downloaded the software. Buz kill for me was the lack of fixture personality features. Being able to edit blind by having gobo color ranges labeled etc is a great thing. Overall I would want a software solution to have move features not less then a hardware console I am comparing it to. If the physical consoles were half the price I would look harder, but to get 30 phsical playbacks would end up costing me more then a used azure. Still it is one of the software solutions I keeping coming back to, and the software is under active development. I am looking a physical boards due to wanting physical switchs, and the azure price per switch is about $20. The magicq price per switch is about $100. Which is not a fair comparison really mostly due to new vs used. But I have not seen any magicq stuff for sale used.

 

Are there any cheap midi device that might give me 50 or so switches with intergrated lights? Would magicQ be able to use these any have the lights be maybe solid for active presets this page and blink for presets active on others pages? or some other method?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

-Teva

 

They may or may not be right for you, but you should check out Chamsys - http://www.chamsys.co.uk/. The PC solutions (perhaps even an MQ50) would be at about the right price point for you, I think. Add an external touchscreen and you're on the way. The beauty of Chamsys kit is that you can make it work in exactly the way you want. For example, you mentioned needing 50 or so faderless playbacks for quick access - the hardware doesn't give you this, but just set yourself up an Execute display with the stuff you want on as many soft-buttons as you want, and busk away. You can download the MagicQ PC software from the Chamsys site for free - give it a go and see what you think.

[paulears]

Chamsys, from what people say on here and the converts I've bumped into in person - seem a bit odd. Odd, as in being people who you can actually talk to! I'd email them explaining what it is you want to do and seeing if they have ideas/proposals that you'd like.

 

Th scary thing about Azures is that they, like the Pearls, are very dated technology now - despite being popular. Resale value will be next to nothing in a year - so whatever you pay, you will have to write off, and then start again!

[James Remo]

<Massive snip>

 

Why not a pearl?

Triggering chase layers by fader is fine, but really a switch will do for my purposes. The Azure has 50 while the pearl has only 15, I know about pages, but there is the whole issue if something is left ON on page 1 you can't use an item in the same position in page 2. With 15 this could be an issue, with 50 its not really such a problem. I might work with 2 pages on typical night, and the overlap issues would be rare.

</snip>

 

It's been a while since I had to use an azure, but IIRC the bump buttons have a priority in columns, meaning that whilst you have 50 bumps for memories, triggering one memory in a column will loose any other memory from that column from the stage, so only actually able to playback 20 memories at once (10 bumps & 10 faders I think) Last time I had to busk on one I forgot and put separate attributes in rows (to make them effectively pallets), so choosing a gobo from column 3 lost the dimmer from column 3. Doh!

[zetist]

Paul,

 

I will send an email to chamsys and see what ideas they have. ;)

 

I agree that the azure is very dated, I was hoping it still only fall around 25% a year at most. Not many good busking boards out there.

 

I really don't know the trend on how the price has been dropping on the azure, but it seems that if it held some value for 7 years (when this unit was made), it hopefully has some time left before dropping into the "budget" area of $2000 or less.

 

Maybe I missunderstand.

 

-Teva

 

 

Chamsys, from what people say on here and the converts I've bumped into in person - seem a bit odd. Odd, as in being people who you can actually talk to! I'd email them explaining what it is you want to do and seeing if they have ideas/proposals that you'd like.

 

Th scary thing about Azures is that they, like the Pearls, are very dated technology now - despite being popular. Resale value will be next to nothing in a year - so whatever you pay, you will have to write off, and then start again!

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Thanks James,

 

This is a good point, I knew it had a limit of 20 total, but I was not aware it had the column limit, this is very similer to how the pearl works. If only I could pick up a pearl for less then $5k (haha) it seams the pearl would be the way to go.

 

-Teva

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Some of the more intresting consoles I looked at:

 

Compulite rave, one being sold on UK ebay for ~$2k starting bid.

ETC ION, $7.5k package deal advertised for console, 20 playback wing and wireless focus remote. (maybe as little as 6k without remote?)

Vista S3 $6-7k

 

Real intrested if anyone has great things to say about the compulite rave. It seems to be a very obscure console. That the bloke selling it has lowered his asking price 2 or 3 times, it seems no one is keep to buy it from him.

[gareth]

I looked at the magicQ extensivly, and downloaded the software. Buz kill for me was the lack of fixture personality features.

Do you mean you thought it was lacking in terms of the contents of its fixture personality library? Because MagicQ has one of the most extensive libraries I've seen ...

 

Being able to edit blind by having gobo color ranges labeled etc is a great thing.

MagicQ has extensive palette functionality - including labelling on-screen with whatever text you like - which can be used to very quickly and easily put together "on the fly" looks, either live on stage or in blind mode.

 

Overall I would want a software solution to have move features not less then a hardware console I am comparing it to.

The MagicQ PC software has exactly the same features as the console software - all that's lacking is the console hardware, and that can be added to varying degrees at very reasonable cost through the various PC hardware solutions.

[indyld]

Just to back Gareth up:

 

The MagicQ is probably the best value system with the features that you seem to need. And the hardware is not expensive, even if you go for one of the "hands on" desks.

 

The MagicQ does everything you could want without actually having as many physical faders as a Pearl. Maybe the the help files are not so good if you are not experienced on the Pearl AND if you didn't get to the know the late Hog II (sniff, sniff).

 

Most people who use both of those desks, can use the MagicQ with hardly any instruction.

 

As for the Azure, it is end of life (I hesitate to say that it was the worst desk that Avo made) so is going to be cheap. I also find it inflexible and difficult to use (unlike the Pearl). All the regulars on this forum have their own pet lighting desk favourite and we all know what they are (I use a Pearl2004/Expert pretty much every day of the week) but don't buy an Azure - really make the effort to find out about the MagicQ.

 

Best wishes,

[Tomo]

A Congo Jr with Wing may be suitable - it is more buskable than an Azure, although it is physically wider.

The big bonus is that Congo is still under active development.

 

Have a word with a local ETC dealer and try one out - it may be good for you, or it may not.

[No Longer A Member 210514]

My 2 cents...

 

Find the budget if poss for a Pearl Expert... I was after similar features to you and after much deliberating bought the expert...

 

Now I'm living on bread and water!

[niclights]

To follow up on some points...

 

There are no hardware advantages between any othe the Azure/Pearl variants other than USB support and higher quality playback faders (Pearl 2000 vs 04/08/Tiger). There are no performance differences that I know of & I think it is reasonable to conclude there will not be any further firmware/software changes for the Azure.

 

Despite my bias I have looked in detail at the options provided by other main players, with particular attention to blind mode and buskability.

 

Personally I don't see the Hog as a contender & certainly not if you're already familiar with the Avo way.

 

GrandMA do make a point of coming from a 'rock'n'roll' angle and have some interesting solutions, but blind mode editing was definitely not as instantly accessible. Cost may also be an issue.

 

Vista have probably the best programming/blind mode facilities, but (IMO) have poor control surface for actual operation. These are likely even more expensive.

 

Chamsys are by far the most competitive in price & do indeed have incredible support and more software options than you can throw a stick at.

 

 

Crucially, as pointed out, all the above can be downloaded for free. This is a great way to understand how these consoles differ from Avo, whether you can still achieve the things you need and what new options are made available. By doing this you should be able to see if any will suit your application & if there is then a control surface option that fits in budget.

[raxz]

I've been using an Azure at a nightclub for about 5 years. I have 3-4 parties every week so I have used it a lot. We have 16 moving heads (Martin and Robe), 44 Elation Exbar LED Bars, about 40 china LED Bars that are lighting bar and stairs next to dancing area, 4 strobes, 36 channels of dimmers for blinders and house and bar lights. I find that Azure is the best for nightclub.

I have also used Pearl 2000, 2008, and Expert with Titan a lot. I like Pearl best for live shows and concerts, but Azure for club. I have also tried Expert in this club, but I found out that Azure is better here.

Also I have some experience with Vista T2, but it's not very good choice for club. It's good in theatre, where I have been using it for about 20 times.

[EmmaThompson]

As much as I love the Azure, as we now have Titan, things have moved on leaps and bounds since then. You might be more interested in the new Titan Mobile we're bringing out at PLASA - same Titan OS as the Expert and Tiger Touch, but a wing/PC based solution.

 

Still has 10 pageable playbacks, like the Tiger Touch, still has a 12 universe capacity, with a touchscreen laptop (or even a regular laptop) you can leave all your palettes up on your screen and mix them up with playbacks to your hearts content! You can even have a show programmed on the Mobile, then if you get to a venue and they have a Titan desk, you can load your show into that and use all the extra faders.

 

Plus it's teeny and fits into an Avo bag along with said laptop, at a fraction of the price of a full size desk!

 

If you get a chance, come to our PLASA stand and have a play, if not there's some info on our website:

 

http://www.avolites.org.uk/products/titanmobile.htm

 

Any questions let me know ;)

[rossmck]

raxz : Welcome to the Blue Room - are you aware however that the thread to which you've replied is over two and a half years old , it's likely the OP has found a new desk by now ;)