Lighting in China

[tonyjames]

A couple of days after registering with the Blue Rooms I got a phone call from an old uni friend who is now in a band fronted by Chinese twin girl vocalists. He wanted someone to do lights for a 2 week tour of China. Over 4 months later I have come home while the Chinese new year was on. Back out tomorrow for at least another 6 months. I have been very lucky being with a band that is getting quite a bit of success and now having the budget to do good lighting.

 

China is a fabulous country, the people are very friendly and incredibly hard working. Organisation is not a strong point. Many of the larger lighting hire companies have western guys running the shops, the crews are nearly always Chinese. Most of the young know a bit of English so doing things is not too difficult. Having the Chinese girls in the band has meant they have toured large areas of the country that western acts would not have had enough exposure to justify going gigs. In many areas we are the first westerners they have met. The Chinese love high tech things and in the more western areas the life style is over the top.

 

Most hire companies away from the big five cities use only Chinese equipment. Reliability is not much worse than western kit. On an average show with fifty movers, one would play up or fail. They tend to look after the kit well. I think in the west we may not treat cheap Chinese product well because it is cheap and that leads to problems, for them it is not cheap and they need to make it last as long as possible.

 

There is a distinction between companies that are in the lighting business, take PR Lighting as an example, who just manufacture lighting equipment and have distribution in place for both new product and spares and general manufacturing companies. Hire companies in China buy from lighting companies. The other manufacturers will make anything, if a European distributors goes to them and wants this type of moving light they will make it. During the communist period each town and village would have one or more general manufacturer, they would make anything needed in the local area. These have been bought, usually sold by corrupt officials, by corporations who own dozens and in some cases hundreds, who fill them with orders for cheap products aimed at the west; getting the cost as low as possible is the main aim. Once the batch has been shipped they will move on to the next product, maybe a toaster. Getting spares from these companies is almost impossible. Very often the brand is European or American and the product is never seen in China hire companies stock or venues. These products are manufactured to a price for importers to sell in their own markets, they are not a good representation of the state of Chinese lighting companies. It is western importers after a quick buck. If you want reliable Chinese product buy from a company that has established itself in the lighting field, they are in there for the long run and intend to build a global brand.

 

 

 

Travelling around China the equipment at gigs splits between areas that are westernised and wealthy where owning Western products is a status symbol, ie the consoles and fixtures you come across are all the well known brands. The remainder of the country is control by Chinese theatre lighting companies, mostly unheard of in the west, they have kitted out the venues with their versions of western inspired products. These companies have thousands of installs. A popular one seems to be very close to a Strand 500 series ( not used the Strand ones so cannot comment on how close). Also in these areas are the local copies of western products. By far the post popular copy is the Avo Pearl followed by the Hog PC with cloned widgets ($75) and wings and then a hacked version of Jands Vista that runs on PC with artnet out ($380 with 8 universe artnet to DMX box).

 

 

 

As in the rest of the world clone kit falls into two categories, firstly the legal copy that is widely sold and easily sourced and then the illegal (exact clones) copies. These are sold on the black market and not so easy to find. The further you are into rural China the more of this stuff you see as the price is very low. The legal copies have slightly different layout, markings and usually the electronic circuit boards are different but designed to run the same software. In many cases the manufacturer will claim they have improved the original hardware design.

There are many reasons why the Chinese consider it acceptable to (just about) legally copy western products. A common one is the West's (or less than 20% of global population) use of around 60% of the worlds resources, they see the west taking what is partly theirs and then selling at high prices to them. In poor areas this is a common (bitter) comment along with trying to keep them poor by preventing them opening factories or building power stations. They think the west wants to prevent the poor industrialising so it can continue to pollute with carbon dioxide at their expense. I have spent many many hours arguing that we (in the west) are cutting pollution and that is not the case. Their view is we should stop polluting completely, they will industrialise quickly and then they will reduce pollution after they have our life style.

 

 

They know the prices for components, the same components as used in western products, they accept that workers in the west earn more than they do but when they work out the prices they resent people making excessive profit out of them. A copy of the Pearl can be bought locally for 1900 dollars or about a thousand pounds, they think the five thousand pounds on top of that as excessive. They see enough local factory owners driving around in top of the range BMWs and Mercedes to not want to pay the extra for some westerner to do the same while they use bikes.

 

Another is the problem of existing in China. In areas away from the well known cities (China has more cities of 12 million than the rest of the world combined) just living is hard. Even though the country is communist you need money for everything, there is no national health, no unemployment benefit. If you want to start a business you need to live, with little money the quickest way to being able to sell something is to copy it as closely as possible but within Chinese law. Most of the people in these small companies work over 100 hours per week. They see this as a first step in building a company that will compete on even terms in the future.

 

 

Finally is a Chinese culture trait. If you sell them software protected by a dongle they see that as a personal insult that you do not trust them.. Students claim that there is no system they cannot hack, even if it means going thru megabytes of code byte by byte. You can buy in markets copies of everything from chip design programs to CAD software, all lighting software, media server. You name it, it has been hacked. Some forums have 100’s of people working together to crack software. Chinese universities graduate more engineering students every year than the rest of the world less India combined. The authorities seem to turn a blind eye to this activity. I guess they are happy about the knowledge being gained and the fact that the Chinese can defeat the best the West can devise. Some activity, for example the HogPC widget is probably done by a couple of students to help pay through university. When they leave and get jobs it will no longer be available until some else hacks and manufactures them.

 

 

 

oooooppppsss

Having been out there for over 4 months I decided to buy a locally manufactured Pearl clone or rather near copy with subtly differences to ensure it is legal. There are two companies making them I know of and was lucky enough to do a show near one and was invited to pop in and see them. Used their desk on the show which was good promo for them. They currently make the Pearl 2008 type hardware and sell without any software installed. It is easy to then download the latest 2008 release software and instructions on how to install from a lighting forum (in Chinese unfortunately) and the people on there do any hacking needed . The company also have Pearl Expert and Tiger Pearl (they might even have this ready before Avo ships the real Tiger) type hardware nearly ready and have a team of around 10 software people working at writing their own version of software. They have also teamed up with an Indian company who are writing the programs for the Diamond / Pearl Expert. They are also playing with an upgrade kit for any Pearl that replaces the main board with a small PC box with 2.5 hard drive and connects to front cables, this runs their own Windows software making it control more universes and giving it a Artnet network interface and faster response as well as good USB storage. I had a brief play of all three and they have the basics in place. I intend to go back and see how they are getting on next time I am in the area.

Talking to the company about doing near copies they see it as no different to companies copying the IBM PC. The hardware is a vehicle to run software on, they have done the first step and are now doing their own code. If a user wants to copy the software then that is a decision by the user, they could approach Avo to buy a copy if they won't sell (as is the case) then they rip it. Western companies were very quick to copy IBM. In the mean time buying a Pearl 2008 type copy, I see this as buying into a company that in the future will make its own products (probably looking like western kit so people feel at home with it) that will offer good functionality at less that a quarter of the price of western products. For the price of $1900 I think it is a very good buy. They will deal direct with Europe if anyone wants to check out or order the products. PM me if you want contact details. As for reliability you could afford to buy five for the same price as an original. If I bring it back to the UK ( may stay out in China) the hardware is legal but would have to make sure it ran Chinese software. I see no problem getting it repaired by the independent repair companies as it uses all the same parts.

I was told by the owner of the sound hire company we use that Avo tried to take both companies to court but it was thrown out because the product is sufficiently different and the company's are not involved in piracy of the software. Have not heard this from anyone else so may only have a grain of truth in there. The company I bought the desk off would not comment (loss of face is a big thing for the Chinese).

 

\\Rant

Reading a lot of posts here on the Blue Rooms and on Lightnetwork there is absolute hatred at this. Comments about inferior parts, badly put together, poor reliability and many other lies. They do not make special components for western products made in China, the Sony factory down the road uses exactly the same resistors, capacitors, integrated circuits. At uni the Pearl we had was always temperamental, it would throw a funny we would open it up wiggle the cables, push connectors and IC's home and it would work again (that why it is easy to open!!). It never let us down for a show. I have not had to do this with a Chinese copy yet. The only valid argument is that the western company is spending money to develop the product. To this they should develop in the most cost effective way. Like most mobile phone companies they should do this in areas that are the most cost effective. If they do not get their costs under control they will never be able to compete with Indian or Chinese companies in the future. This should be a wake up call to them, rather than try and blackmail customers into continuing paying high prices.

All western companies open up and examine competitors products. If they see a good idea or a cheaper way of doing it, their next product uses that information.

I can remember hearing from an employee of a London based lighting company of engineers staying late so that a competitors desk could be brought in on a day before a show so that it could be taken apart. It is also worth remembering that High End was an importer into the US selling ClayPaky product until they cloned them. The only difference is the Chinese are open about it because their legal system is different to ours. If a company does not like the Chinese legal system don’t sell your product there. If you do then don’t turn round and moan about it being unfair, you were greedy enough to take the money.

Or learn from the German engineers and design a product that is advanced hardware and cannot be copied. There are no copies or hacks of MA products that I know of.

 

If you want value for money products buy from Chinese companies that specialise in the product you want. Remember that the majority of parts in your LCD TV, Cd player, DVD player, PC, X-Box....... were made in China and I don't hear of them all failing. Don't buy from western importers making large profits out of products the Chinese would not use.

 

A comment on Bloomberg the other day that half of the top 10 largest companies are Chinese owned, 15 years ago they were not global companies, can you name any of them?.

To compete in this new century western companies need to develop products that are competitive globally, not over priced in two thirds of the worlds markets.

End of rant//

 

I will try and follow up this posting on my return to China. When I arrived last time tried to access the forum but it was blocked, maybe the name gives the wrong idea to censors

[niclights]

The only valid argument is that the western company is spending money to develop the product

 

Exactly. And this is what you are paying for.

 

The Chinese just copy and sell at manufacturing cost. Plain theft. That is why people hate it and rightly so.

[ceecrb1]

I just kept reading one word over and over..

sometimes it had "legal" and sometimes it had "illegal" infront.

 

Fact is the word and truth of the matter is.... "COPY".

 

good or not, why support another continents "rip-offing" when we europeans can keep the (far harder earned by the original designer) cash within our country/nations.

 

They know the prices for components, the same components as used in western products,

 

Dont give me that tosh.

I have photos of the insides of a "stone" pearl copy and varying other chinease "things" (having now seen one and having compaired it side- by-side with one of my pearls, I dont see how its a legal, if it is, its definately not moral).

 

The stone landed in my workshop from an external client wanting repairs done.

Many buttons needed replaced. The components were copies just like the desk itself.

The desk was 3 weeks old. The copied buttons just couldnt hack it. I had to order originals of and replace every single button.

 

this also is exactly the same story for my companies chinease imported LED screen. Each led board has an intensity controller per colour (variable reistor).

These are copies of the "bournes" american brands. And guess what.. they fail. A lot.

 

Fact is that statment is not entirely accurate and is a little easier said than done I Think.

[David A]

I would like to thank Tony for an informative and thoughtful thread, I find the Chinese most friendly and helpful and I often get replies at 10pm as they work as late as I do.Some of the gear I buy is unique to China, I can't help thinking back to the seventies and the Japanese rubbish and cheap cars etc, and made in Japan was an insult.As for copying, everyone from Microsoft down has done their share of that.In a few years China will rival other industrial countries on quality and innovation, and no amount of complaining is going to change the course of history.

[Cormac]

Hi,

I think this post is one of the more informed and interesting posts I've seen on the blue-room.

I would not agree with all of the points that tony is making but at least he is shining a light on some of the reasons why china is copying hardware and software.

 

Does anybody have any facts and figures that would show where the majority of illegal downloaded music comes from?? I would hazard a guess that it is western Europe and north america,anybody know?.I'm not suggesting that anybody on the blue room has ever used cracked or illeagal CAD software or swapped the latest chart album with a friend but I do hope you know why you do it because the majority of these products are overpriced.

 

I don't use copied or cloned hardware but a few years ago I had my doubts about Robe which were totally unproven but as can now be seen I was very wrong the high build quality,good service available and massive amounts of sales in a wide area show that unproven products can come from unknown sources,so maybe I should take stock of what what I consider quality before I throw mud.

 

Regards mis-speller

[Ike]

The only valid argument is that the western company is spending money to develop the product

 

Exactly. And this is what you are paying for.

 

No thats a small percentage of what you're paying for. Most of it it profits for (parent) companies and shareholders, corporate hospitality and discounts for companies that can afford to pay full whack anyway.

 

I'd also like to congratulate Tony on a fantastic post.

[Jonny DMX]

I really fascinating read. Thanks Tony for posting that here it is a real insight into their culture and ethos. I also find it interesting that you have chosen to buy one of their products. You obviously had your reasons in the same way that others have their reasons for not purchasing these products.

 

Personally I would not buy something that would seem to be a copy of someone else’s product. I would always support the owners of the intellectual property, or someone that has legally bought rights to that intellectual property. How would you feel if you created a wonderful lighting design for your client, something you had spent a lot of time and money researching and perfecting and something that you were really proud of? Then someone else comes along sees your design and copies it exactly, maybe changing a colour here or a gobo there, but essentially the same design. Then lets say that they started showing that design off and claiming it as their own despite not doing any of the research or giving the time that you put in. How would you feel? If it was me I'd feel pretty rotten and cheated.

 

Now I can understand the points you make above, but for me, I do not necessarily agree with them. I would love to hear back on this story in a year or two and see how you are getting on with the same desk in terms of reliability, product support, software upgrades etc.

 

I can only speak from experience and form my limited contact with Chinese made 'copies' of ETC Source4 Pars it has not been good. My impression is that they copy the 'look' and not the 'function'. Their lenses and reflectors are poor; if you do a shoot-out against a real ETC source4 par you will see a notable drop in performance and colour temperature from the copy. Construction wise, they look poorly put together and badly finished. Their daylight pars do not use proper lenses that include a UV filter, which is just dangerous. All these things considered I would not use one of these copies (which sadly I see more of these days) on the performance alone. I am not prepared to compromise on the performance to save a few quid here and there. At the end of the day I believe you get what you pay for.

 

Jonny

[Nick S]

Does anybody have any facts and figures that would show where the majority of illegal downloaded music comes from?? I would hazard a guess that it is western Europe and north america,anybody know?.I'm not suggesting that anybody on the blue room has ever used cracked or illeagal CAD software or swapped the latest chart album with a friend but I do hope you know why you do it because the majority of these products are overpriced.

 

China has the 2nd largest base of net users - if you were to consider Asia as a whole, you'd find the majority of the world's net traffic (and, conversely, P2P activity) was coming from that area.

 

I'd also disagree that the majority of products are overpriced. Here's a few examples:

 

I use a piece of software called MAX/MSP Jitter. You may or may not have heard of it. It's a programming environment for audio and video work. The retail price is $850. As a student, I can get an authorization for one academic year at $60. I also use Vectorworks. The full package costs $2,400. I get it (legally) for free, from the company. They give the software to me for free. Specialized software often has an expensive retail price tag, but the only people who are (or should be) paying the retail price tag are company's who can afford it.

[zonino]

the real reason they are giving you the software for free is that their customer base is more likely to buy their product, if the customer already has people who know how to use it - it's business!

[danjshelton]

Hi All,

 

As an ex Avolites Employee (Software Department 2003 - 2004) I do find the whole copying of there lighting desks disgusting (along with the copying of other items such as Martin Fixtures, ETC Source 4's, other lighting desks and the like).

 

One thing that has intrigued me, and anyone who has one of these "copies" or seen inside one (ceecrb1) can probably answer this, have they copied the circuit board layout as far as having my name (among other Avolites employee's at the time) printed on the PCB?

 

For those of you that haven't looked inside an avo desk with a borris board (Azure, Pearl 2000, 04, 08 and Sapphire) Avolites have a nice little touch of thanking the people who helped to make the product (which is everyone there at the time, including the warehouse guys, accountants and admin staff), as I was working there when the borris 3 board was made I got on the list, I wonder if they copied this? or even if they put there own names there?

 

Tony as you say that you bought a desk for £1000 (ish) and state that Avolites prices are "excessive", having worked for them I know (well at the time) what the rough cost to manufactur the desk's is, I can say that the profit isn't as high as many would think (and no I'm not going to say what it costs to make!), especially when you take into account that pretty much all of the people that Avolites supply to will get some discount off the list price.

 

Anyway, just a few of my thoughts, I've been lurking on other Avo copy threads and chinese copy threads but not posted about them yet.

 

Cheers

 

Dan

 

PS Thanks the post anyway Tony, it was certainly a good read.

[ceecrb1]

Unfortunately, That I cannot say as I handnt realised names were printed, and the stone as long since left my workshop.

 

If (when) it re-appears I´ll check!

[Nick S]

the real reason they are giving you the software for free is that their customer base is more likely to buy their product, if the customer already has people who know how to use it - it's business!

 

I guess that was kind of my point, although I'm more using it to illustrate that there are very few circumstances where you really need software where you are unable to afford it. The argument that people pirate software because of price is to me a fairly weak on...backed up by the numerous companies caught doing it, who really can afford the fees...

[liptontea]

I have just spent 20min of my life reading an article by some one justifying plain theft and infringement of other company’s products.

 

You arguments in my mind are totally invalid, why do you think they see people installing dongles as a sign of miss-trust, because it is, they are taking money for products they not developed and making money.

 

If you truly believe that buying a product that is copied will advance the technology available to you then you are totally insane. Companies needed the capital they get from selling you the original product to innovate and make new products, product that make our industry better, more exciting and creative. If you want to stop that then please buy all the copied products you want, but don’t come running to the manufactures who developed the original products when you want something new, exciting and innovate, let alone the provide the service and support you would expect, they wont be able to afford to make it, because people like you advocate copying their products and taking money from their pockets.

 

You are fooling your self if you think companies like Avo are not worried about this kind of copying, I am sure they would take legal action if the manufacturing companies in China existed long enough to do so. And then where does that leave you when you need support? Don’t think for a second the original designing company will give you a second of their time, I wouldn't if I was in their shoes.

 

I actively support the manufactures who are taking active steps to protect their consoles and hardware with dongles, patents etc, it stops people doing exactly what you are suggesting and actively supporting.

 

I am infuriated by people like you and see absolutely no validity or reasons that people, regardless of origin, that can justify plain theft, if I walked into your house and copied all you DVD's, video's the content of your computer, you wouldn't be happy, why is any different?

 

Alan

[Ike]

I don't understand how you can see this is as so black and white. Western brands have got a strangle hold on the market which they're not going to give up without a fight. People are familiar with their products while a few bad apples, difficulty in support and (dare I say it) racism create a strong distrust of eastern ones. Western brands are the ones who can afford to supply large companies at obscenely discounted prices (or even FOC) while charging small theatres, charities and community groups the full RRP. Thats before we get onto all the money that gets spent on corporate hospitality, you really do have to ask where the line between good marketing and bribery is and how many companies have crossed it.

 

If you truly believe that buying a product that is copied will advance the technology available to you then you are totally insane.

Surely increased competition will? Eastern companies are probably far more capable of innovating that western ones due to the number of highly qualified workers available and economic factors, they just need to get their foot in the door.

 

If you blindly pay whatever established companies want for a slightly revamped product and think that will advance the technology available to you then you are insane.

 

if I walked into your house and copied all you DVD's, video's the content of your computer, you wouldn't be happy,

Honestly I wouldn't care and why should I? You haven't deprived me of anything, if you were intending to purchase the DVDs, videos and software then you would have deprived the copyright holders of money which I agree is not good and leads me nicely onto my final point. A lot of these copies are aimed at people who wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford the real thing, someone purchasing a copy of an Xyz7000 probably isn't going to deprive Xyz Inc. of a sale.

 

 

I am playing devils advocate to a certain extent of course there are western companies doing hugely innovative work with very sound business practices however arguments are rarely as simple as people make out. As a rather extreme case if you killed someone in self defense would that sill be murder?

[lichtwicht]

Honestly I wouldn't care and why should I? You haven't deprived me of anything, if you were intending to purchase the DVDs, videos and software then you would have deprived the copyright holders of money which I agree is not good and leads me nicely onto my final point.

Sorry, but reality proves that your wrong: Manufacturers have to calculate those losses into their product price calculation. At the end those honest buyers who are willing to pay for what they are using need to pay the part of revenues you did pay by illegaly stealing products and services.

But indeed there is an innovation driving aspect: The blank copying motivates western manufacturers to foucs on high technical products that can't be copied this easy (for example compare HighEnd's product portfolio today and 5 years ago). Nevertheless this effect is not endless as the research for those products are much higher and therefore the risk through copying is higher as the illegal gain by the copyist is even higher.