New Kit - Suggestions please

[DSA]

Hi,

 

We do a lot of musicals at school, usually involving a chorus of a fair size (say 30 max). Obviously it is nice to pick them up on mics for the PA (and a recording if we get round to it!).

 

We have, over the years, tried various methods with no avail. These included:

 

- 'Hanging' mics from lighting bar (2, and don't ask what type it was a couple of years back, but they were hired so I expect right for the job)

 

- 4 Rifle mics from corners of stage. (These proved to be too directional and only picked out a couple of, usually weak!!!, voices).

 

- Other dodgy methods like SM58s at edge of stage (oh who suggested that.......!)

 

I wondered what solution you lot had, that doesn't break the bank (as our budget is somewhat limited for this sort of thing usually)

 

Any help would be most appreciated,

 

David

 

P.S. They're not always on the stage so maybe were looking at 2 solutions here - one on, and one off.

[robloxley]

I quite like PCC160s along the front of the stage and have always got on pretty well with flown mics (either short shotguns or those 'over choir/House of Commons' type ones) along with radios for the principals. What was your issue with flown/hanging mics?

[DSA]

It was that we couldnt get enough signal out of them, with the gain right up.

 

This could be because:

 

a) they were not the right mics

b) they were too high

 

I dont know

 

All I do know is that if I need that setup again, then I want to get it right!!

 

David

[richard]

I used to use shot guns type mics, with three hung from the front of house lighting bar, if you look at the specs for the mics you can then see the angle that they pick up, and from that work out how far from the stage you will need them, along with how many and how far apart... If you have a deep stage then you may need a couple more focused further US

 

Float mics on the floor are good, if they are good mikes, sadly Tandys PZMs are no more, but the crows are good.

[robloxley]

This could be because:

a) they were not the right mics

b) they were too high

I dont know

All I do know is that if I need that setup again, then I want to get it right!!

I had good results using the AKG-C921CMs which are now discontinued, but replaced by the HM modular series, which looks pretty good. One of the things is that they're so discrete you can fly them in quite far.

If you can't fly them in far enough, agreed that they sound a bit like an SM58 from the back of the auditorium - in that case rifles are probably a better bet.

[James]

It was that we couldnt get enough signal out of them, with the gain right up.

 

This could be because:

 

a) they were not the right mics

b) they were too high

 

Is this that you couldn't get enough gain or you couldn't get enough gain before feedback?

 

How big is your auditorium - what are you using for PA, how is it rigged and how far is it from the chorus - are you using any on stage foldback and how many other mics do you normaly have up when the chorus is singing - oh and what desk have you got and what outboard have you available. I assume you don't have the budget to get someone in to do this for you...

 

Oh yes and is this a musical to a track or live orch/band - what mics are you using on them and where are they in relation to the chorus.

 

 

 

James

[DSA]

Right James,

 

Its a school hall (about 9 years old) which seats about 400 very roughly (plus balcony). The sound/lighting box is at the back of the balcony.

 

We use 2 Peavey Hisys 2 Speakers with a peavey CS800X power amp. The desk is made by 'seck' and is 12 channels with 8 groups. There is no outboard. Principals use Audio Technica radio handhelds (ATW 1452s) and something overhead to pick up the chorus (which is the problem).

 

There is no foldback.

 

Usually the musical is to a band, although for smaller shows it will be to a track. The band is not usually mic'd up as theyre loud enough already!

 

David.

 

P.S. The only other mics we've got are 2 SM58s and a single small AT condensor mic.

 

We also have a smaller 600W peavey amp (same range); Sony MD Deck; Denon Tape deck; Denon CD deck.

 

I've just been told that I have £500 to spend on anything. Suggestions on a postcard please for the best way to spend - we do all sorts of stuff (plays, musicals, assemblies, music concerts etc) so the best ideas please!!!!

[Brian]

David

 

I suspect that your biggest problem is the band (aren't they always :wub: ) spilling into any mic setup you've tried so far. So when you try to turn up the choir the band gets louder as well.

 

Is it possible to use mics on stands for the chorus? With 30 people you could run 8 mics, with 4 people sharing a mic . Would still leave you 4 channels on the mixer. Or you could do 5 people to a mic and use 6 mics.

 

With £500 to spend I would buy 8 mic stands at £14.20 each, 8 xlr-xlr 10m cables at £4.68 each and 8 Sennheiser E825S dynamic mics at £35 each, grand total including shipping and VAT £446.04.

 

If you want to know where to gets these PM me, it's a well known German on-line retailer

[James]

Ok I'm jumping back to the begining of you thread here.

 

I don't want to be too much of a FW here but...

 

Obviously it is nice to pick them up on mics for the PA

 

Why.

 

With an auditorium of 400 people 30 should be able to fill it.

 

If you want to record it position your overhead mics FOH as a stereo pair and use them in isolation - they can also be good for a backstage feed.

 

Unfortunatly all re-enforcement techniques rely on the talent being able to project.

 

If the theatre is big enough for one actor to be able to project her lines then a chorus of 30 shouldn't have any trouble being heard - unless the band or track is too loud. Try it unacompanied and see if they sound good - then fade up the track or disciplin the band 'til it's balenced.

 

However, if you still want to use mics, then at a rehersal stand where you want to put the the mics. If you can hear the track or the band louder than the chorus then either move the mics closer or turn the music down as the mics will not do you any good.

 

Using overheads is duficult - it isnt impossible however - remember that every time you halve the distance between the mic and the source of the sound you increase the gain by 6dB, but you loose loose up to 6db of GBF for every open mic - Oh see if you can get yourself a parametric equaliser, and carefuly bring up your overheads listening for the start of any ring - then as you hear it start - isolate it and with a very narrow q filter notch it out - you can do this much more precisly with a parametric than with a graphic with a little practice so it won't sour your sound as much. Oh and make sure you insert this on a group with only the overheads as this won't then affect your track or anything else going through the PA.

 

Basically to sumarise.

• If the right sound isn't getting to where you want to put the mics then the mics will do no good.
  
• if you halve the distance from the mics to the performers you get 6dB extra gain for free
  
• every extra mic you fade up gives you up to 6db less gain.
  

If I was doing this I would carefuly look at the set - are there any nice set pieces I can use to hide mics behind,

I would carefuly look at the blocking, can I mount a couple of cardiod radio mics on a couple of people in the chorus - I've mounted mics to peoples backs in this way to good effect.

 

Anyway have a think - don't expect to be able to buy a box that will make it all perfect immediatly - try a few different solutions and let us know what works eventualy.

 

Good Luck

 

James

[DSA]

I think you're right James, and I must say that I never thought it was required - it was the Director's decision......(as always)

 

I am still unsure on the best way to spend this £500 - I am not too sure that an increase to our mic stock would be the best idea.

 

I was thinking that a couple of flight cases (1 rack and 1 trunk) would be a good idea to move cables quickly (in trunk) and to protect cd players etc on rack when moved about which happens a fair amount.

 

Perhaps we should get a simple (i.e. 'cheap') fx unit?? I have no experience with these.......

 

Where should I try for cases, or is there anywhere to try 2nd hand. Could you reccomend the one to go for - would like castors for ease of movement esp. on trunk, and the rack could be quite heavy...!!

 

Anyone know of discouts for schools etc.

 

David

[Brian]

The last time I bought some seconhand cases I got them here Secondhand Flightcases

[DSA]

I have posted this before, but havent received much of a response, almost certainly because t was hidden away under something else.......

 

I have been given a budget of £500 to spend on new sound gear - I am not too sure that an increase to our mic stock would be the best idea.

 

I was thinking that a couple of flight cases (1 rack and 1 trunk) would be a good idea to move cables quickly (in trunk) and to protect cd players etc on rack when moved about which happens a fair amount.

 

Perhaps we should get a simple (i.e. 'cheap') fx unit?? I have no experience with these.......

 

Where should I try for cases, or is there anywhere to try 2nd hand. Could you reccomend the one to go for - would like castors for ease of movement esp. on trunk, and the rack could be quite heavy...!!

 

Anyone know of discouts for schools etc.

 

David

 

P.S. another person suggested Flightcase Warehouse for cases - any more places to compare??

[Bryson]

Moderation. Merged with Original Topic - Its the same thread!

[James]

I can't advise on what to get with your blank cheque for £500.

 

(well you could give it to me if you want to get rid of it :) )

 

Seriously I would consider one of..

• Hiring someone to come in and advise - train - operate a gig for you.
  
• buying whatever you find you are hiring or borrowing more times than is financialy viable
  
• buying whatever you are short of - running out of
  

ie. I think going out with a blank cheque is a recepie for disaster for many reasons.

 

I think that only you know what you use, Are you running out of DI's mic leads, cable covers, desk tape, sharpies, cans, Are you using a '57 on kick where a 421 or D112 might be nicer? is your CD player jumping, Do you need a parametric to insert on your overhead mics? do you have singers sharing mics where a couple more 58's could help

 

again new equipment needs experiance or training - experiance breeds experiance.

 

If you can't think of anything you are running out of you have enough DI's, you never need specialist mics, you can't think of another use for a couple more 58's - or anything else I've sugested then give me a PM and I'l find something to do with the money :)

 

James

 

If you don't have a need for anything in particular then it doesn't make sence to buy for the sake of buying - put the money in the account and save up for when an amp/speaker/desk dies.

[DSA]

I see what you are saying, James, but I realise that our kit is seriously poor and outdated (on the whole).

 

Our desk is fairly poor to start with - a 12 channel seck with 8 groups (I still dont know who these people are - have they evolved into another well known company??) - but I suppose it does do its job.

 

The amps aer pretty new (Peavey CS800X and similar CS600) along with the speakers (Peavey Hisys).

 

We have no DIs (maybe we should) and our mics are OK - We have 2 AT 1452's (Radio Handheld) and a couple of SM58s. We dont do many bands, but when we do we can borrow from the Music dept. which have just purchased a new Yamaha AW4416 along with lots of mics (inc. 3 Sennheiser e855, 2 beyer Opus 83, 1 AKG D112 (if thats the Kick Drum one), 2 AKG C414 B-ULS) for their new 'recording studio' - except none of the teachers know how to work the stuff!!!!!!!

 

We have a new Sony MD Player which is not top of the range, but again does its job.

 

CD and Tape decks are equally OK.

 

Maybe a CD Writer would be good - but why not use MD???? For us I see that as a waste of money.

 

But we have no outboard like an fx unit. I know they may take a little training, but would it be worth it. i.e. does it make a huge difference to output/quality/'niceness' (I cant think of the right word).

 

We do occasionally have VHS videos in hall going onto LCD projector via PA for sound, which introduces a hum. Would a DI sort this out??

 

And if I want to run sound effects from my laptop, do I need a DI between that and the PA to avoid hum???

 

Thanks,

David