Church PA Equipment

[SceneMaster]

Hi,

 

I have been asked by my church to expand and “finish of†the audio system install for 1.2k.

 

At the moment we have the following which has all been installed in the last year by myself and various contractors.

 

2x EV SX-80B Speakers (these are all that is needed to cover the church)

 

The items below are housed in a rack in a secure cupboard at the back of the church sadly there is only a about 4 U left for expansion. The cupboard the rack was installed into was designed to the dimensions of the rack

 

1x Yamaha P2500S Amplifier

1x Samson S-Curve Graphic EQ

1x Australian Monitor TX-8201 Mixer (for use during services not requiring technically support)

1x Tascam CD-A500 CD\Tape Deck

 

One top of this…

1x 12ch multi + 4 returns to the front of the church,

2x TOA UHF Radio Mic Systems,

2x Shure VHF Radio Mic Systems (not fully working)

1x Samson DI Box (for the laptop feed from the front of the church)

3x Dynamic Vocal Mics (can’t remember the make, nothing special or in main stream use other wise I would be able to remember what they are but they are not budget, they sound good and have been doing so for about 10 years and will continue to do so hopefully).

A few XLR cables and a some random jack leads.

 

We have also just installed an A\V system, with retractable screen, projector, all cabling, DVD player and connectivity for a laptop and sources from various points around the church into both the audio and the visual systems as well as buying a new laptop.

 

Although it sounds like we are very well kitted out for a small church I feel that we should be able to put the 1.2k towards improving the system in some way as the youth have spent time raising for this purpose. My question is what should be the next priority to improve the system. The current system works like a dream for the general church and everyone is incredibly happy, with what has been for me a years worth of work. The only issue is that the youth are due to the nature of the mixer find they don’t have as great a control over the sound as they would like.

This is my list of what I feel we should be looking into getting (in the order I think we should do it):

 

-Cable Set (spend around £100 on connectors and a drum of cable and solder up various different connectors ect)

 

- A proper mixer (Needs to be something in the cheaper end of the market but obviously not Behringer style, the lower end of the Mackie, Yamaha or Soundcraft Ranges with around 16mono channels).

 

-Powered Foldback (which needs to be able to double as powered FOH so can be used in smaller venues that the church uses around 200watt would suffice considering the current FOH is only 80watt a cab).

 

-Vocal and instrumental mics (my thoughts are two SM58, we have stands and cabling and some SM57s for instruments and cabs, the drum kit does not need any mics)

 

-Outboard (cheap comps, effects and one more DI)?

 

-A Sub (although this would be installed so would hopefully not come out of the 1.2k)

 

What do people think of this? What can be got for around 1.2k I am probably asking rather a lot from such a small amount of money or am I considering it is very small scale stuff.

 

Thanks any advice much appreciated in advanced,

[mac.calder]

-Cable Set (spend around £100 on connectors and a drum of cable and solder up various different connectors ect)

 

definatly. Dont skimp on it. Are you able to re-route the multi to a mix position, or is it all set up into the rack. I would think about setting up a patch pannel/splitter/switch of some description so that you can use the existing infrastructure as well.

 

- A proper mixer (Needs to be something in the cheaper end of the market but obviously not Behringer style, the lower end of the Mackie, Yamaha or Soundcraft Ranges with around 16mono channels).

 

I have found the Alto L16 to be a relatively nice desk, it has 4 groups, 16 channels, a few basic effects. It is nothing special, but for the price, it far outstrips the pot luck of behringer.

 

-Powered Foldback (which needs to be able to double as powered FOH so can be used in smaller venues that the church uses around 200watt would suffice considering the current FOH is only 80watt a cab).

 

Can't argue with that. Get 2, with stands, so that you can basically separate into a separate PA that will work anywhere.

 

-Vocal and instrumental mics (my thoughts are two SM58, we have stands and cabling and some SM57s for instruments and cabs, the drum kit does not need any mics)

 

And you cannot go wrong with SM57's&8's.

 

-Outboard (cheap comps, effects and one more DI)?

 

I would get the DI definatly and it's probably a good idea to get a compressor, though re the effects... I would not bother with them if you get a desk with onboards.

 

-A Sub (although this would be installed so would hopefully not come out of the 1.2k)

 

I would strike this completely. Instead, I would buy more mics and cables, or a CD/MD player/recorder etc.

 

What do people think of this? What can be got for around 1.2k I am probably asking rather a lot from such a small amount of money or am I considering it is very small scale stuff.

 

Thanks any advice much appreciated in advanced,

 

 

It can be done.... not overly easily, but with a bit of persuasion, you should be able to get it.

[Mr.Si]

-Powered Foldback (which needs to be able to double as powered FOH so can be used in smaller venues that the church uses around 200watt would suffice considering the current FOH is only 80watt a cab).

 

We have Studiomaster monitors, they were bought by others, for the same needs as you have. (I don't personally like them that much, but they do work well).

[wydsiwyrg]

Hi mate-

How many members do you have?

What is the size of your usual band?

 

 

-Cable Set

 

Buy a reel of decent cable - Klotz/Sommer; and be sure to get Neutrik connectors. Easily spend £100 on this :wub: (Wire up a few TRS cables as well as TS jack to jack)

 

- A proper mixer

 

Yamaha MG 24/14FX - ~£550

 

-Powered Foldback

 

You can get a Carlsbro PM/EM pair for ~£250

 

-Vocal and instrumental mics

 

Can't go wrong with 57s and 58s. They seem to be going VERY cheaply on ebay at the moment - although I don't know if there is some scam going on there - anyone? I have seen Beta 57s and 58s go for between 25-40 pounds + postage in the last two days (UK sellers). You'll spend about another 300 pounds on this.

 

-Outboard (cheap comps, effects and one more DI)?

 

Personally I'd say leave the effects out for the while. There are many many more important things than effects!

Get a few more DIs (they're always useful for Acoustic guitarist/Keyboardists) ~£100.

 

-A Sub (although this would be installed so would hopefully not come out of the 1.2k)

 

Don't get one - improve the other things more with the money you would have allocated to this. If it's external money - chuck it at some DIs/cables/or if significant use it to buy an A&H Mixwizard instead!

 

Hope this helps;

Cheers,

Tim

[mac.calder]

-Vocal and instrumental mics

 

Can't go wrong with 57s and 58s. They seem to be going VERY cheaply on ebay at the moment - although I don't know if there is some scam going on there - anyone? I have seen Beta 57s and 58s go for between 25-40 pounds + postage in the last two days (UK sellers). You'll spend about another 300 pounds on this.

 

there are a lot of low quality fakes going round atm. Could be them. Buy from a reputed dealer

[wydsiwyrg]

there are a lot of low quality fakes going round atm. Could be them. Buy from a reputed dealer

 

Ahh thanks for the tip - will be careful (although with the amount of money I have in my bank its often tempting!)

Tim

[Simon Lewis]

The Wharfedale powered boxes and wedges have just been upgraded and seem to deliver good value for money. If you can stretch your budget to an Allen & Heath MixWiz 16:3, you will not regret it... The bits and pieces can be bought as and when, but it's unlikely that you woill replace the mixer again - so buy the best you can!

 

Simon

[SceneMaster]

Indeed... but I don't like the MixWiz we have one at work and I just don't like it. The Yamaha MG series is good... ok the EQ is strange but it is about the right price for the budget considering it will be used maybe 8 times a year. It is good build, not the greatest desks in the world but suite the purpose perfectly and being Yamaha they won't let you down.

 

I agree the sub is probably a pointless extra not needed considering the bass from the EV speakers sounds good for the venue and we don’t really need ground shaking bass.

 

Thanks for you advice so far any more you can give would be great,

[Simon Lewis]

Each to his own... I do like the A&H, because it gives me "proper" controls on a compact desk. Do you have the older mixwiz or the new version III? Every other small desk appears compromised to me. I have sold quite a few Soundcraft E and M series desks, and they are quite well built. I'm not such a fan of their SX/FX line.

 

I've used aux fed subs in a number of church installs, but these were using small two way boxes (6"+ comp) and some bottom end was needed.

 

Hope the upgrade goes well!

[wydsiwyrg]

Indeed... but I don't like the MixWiz we have one at work and I just don't like it. The Yamaha MG series is good... ok the EQ is strange but it is about the right price for the budget considering it will be used maybe 8 times a year. It is good build, not the greatest desks in the world but suite the purpose perfectly and being Yamaha they won't let you down.

 

I agree the sub is probably a pointless extra not needed considering the bass from the EV speakers sounds good for the venue and we don’t really need ground shaking bass.

 

Considering the size of the church as well - a bass amp from the stage should provide fairly decent coverage too. If worst comes to worst stick the bass amp in the baptistry :wub:

 

I have owned both the Yamaha and the MixWiz - and I prefer the MixWiz - but I guess if you prefer the Yammy then go for it. How comes it will only be used 8 times a year? Not for regular Sunday services?

[SceneMaster]

Regular services have no band these use the rack mounted 8ch mixer. The youth band play about 8 times a year in the church so although the mix wiz is great and I have used it many a time it is extra money which is just not needed plus I just don't like is as a desk probably because it is by design a compact desk. The MG series is not as good I will agree but works perfectly well and is well built and for the small amount of times it is going to be used will be fine and will certainly be better than mixing of the rack mount at the back. If the desk was going used every Sunday then yes I would be considering an MixWiz or an Mackie Onyx, but for such a large chunk of the budget it is just not worth it. I know people will say well if you can stretch the budget get this you won't regret it. Well I can't, this 1.2k is it for ever as far as the church is concerned they have already spent 10k on the rest of the install.

 

Thanks,

 

 

You can get a Carlsbro PM/EM pair for ~£250

-

 

Where would this be, and would anyone recommend Carlsbro?

 

Thanks,

[timtheenchanteruk]

not used that stuff from carlsbro, but I use a few carlsbro amps and a powered mixer, 2 of the amps are pushing 20yr old and still work and sound great, the powered mixer has had a few niggles tho

[wydsiwyrg]

Where would this be, and would anyone recommend Carlsbro?

 

http://www.stagebeat.co.uk/P/monitor_carls...RS+SYSTEM+12%22

 

There's the PM12/EM12 pair for £280. You can get PM10/EM10 for cheaper.

I've owned a few bits and bobs of Carlsbro gear over the years and it's always been reliable. Not the best for anything it does - but for the price; it's definitely worth it.

[J Pearce]

The carlsbro powered foldbacks I have used are very sensitive to ground loops.

I have had situations where FOH amp stacks were powered from the same place as monitors, yet the monitors hummed and FOH didn't.

 

In a church I anticipate that it could be hard to make sure they can be powered from the same circuit.

[Simon Lewis]

Similarly, I moved away from Carlsbro about 10-15 years ago, when I could no longer reconcile the audio quality with the jobs I was using the kit for.

 

I recognise the fact that they've changed hands since then, but their target market remains MI, with its commensurate price points, discounts and expectations.

 

I would usually recommend making sure that the FOH and foldback boxes are of similar quality. There's little point in having clear sound for the congregation, when the musicians cannot differentiate what is being played, and feedback is ever present.

 

I know the budget is limited, but some small higher quality boxes may be what is needed here.

 

Simon