New control and dimming for amateur venue

[pritch]

My amateur group (who are fortunate enough to have their own venue) are mulling over the idea of getting a new control and dimming setup to replace our current one, which is someone around 30 years old now, and uses a completely proprietry low-voltage control (-15v to +10v, believe it or not), so there's no chance of doing this all bit by bit and sticking a demux on our existing dimmers.

 

We never use anything more fancy than just standard lanterns in our rig, so we're not going to be too worried if the setup doesn't do movers all that well.

 

As I said, we're just kicking the idea round right now, the other chap on lighting and I haven't approached the committee with this just yet, but we're confident of getting somewhere between £3-£5000 once we've had a word with the right people about grants and whatnot; unfortunately, it all gets a bit complex as you can't ask for a grant until you know what kit you want, and you can't figure out what kit you want until you know what size grant you're getting. :)

 

So far, I'm thinking of:

 

24/48ch Jester desk

4x Betapacks (possibly 6 or 8, depending on how lucky we feel when it comes to getting a grant for this lot)

 

My two questions are:

 

1. Have I missed anything? I'm aware that we're going to need DMX cabling to string this all together, and a consumer unit or something to split our existing single 3-phase supply out to each rack, but is there anything else that strikes you as being omitted?

 

2. Any other kit I should be looking at instead of the Jester and Betapacks? The only real requirement here is that the dimmers will output on 15A connectors, apart from that, I'm open to suggestions.

 

Looking forward to your advice, thanks.

[Bryson]

The only other thing I'd say is, if it's 30 years old, how is the cabling from the racks to the lanterns done? Is it time to update that as well? Maybe a decent cord patch would be in order, too.

[pritch]

Valid points, Bryson. I believe the wiring in the grid is fairly modern, but I'll double check that.

 

As for a cord patch, it's something that has crossed my mind, and would certainly help with the horrendous task of finding the right numbered 15A plug from a load of others, but sadly we don't have that much space available for the kit, so I fear that fitting a load of dimmers in as well as a patch panel is unlikely.

[mac.calder]

If you get the money for 6 or 8 betapacks, you probably dont want to use the Jester - even though it can do 48 channels, you enter into wide mode which can be a pain in the rear some times. I do like the Jester - it is great value and nice to use, but there is no room to move once you get past 48 channels or at a later date decide you want to be able to control movers.

 

If you are getting 6 beta packs, I would suggest the maXim L (36/72) and if you get 8, maXim XL (48/96) which can be retrofitted at a later date to handle movers (although some dont like the maXim patPad, I actually quite like it for simple mover shows). The maXim also has a larger number of cue stacks and pages of sub masters etc IIRC.

 

Also, dont restrict yourself to betapacks.

[Andrew C]

If you can get towards the upper end of your range, I would commend an ETC desk. One of the smaller Express range. Really easy to learn and use for the inexperienced, yet quite good enough for most shows. Not so good for movers, but this is irrelevant in your case.

 

Betapacks? Fine if new, or new enough not to have fuses. The holders burn out!

 

How about 2nd hand? Hvae a look at the ebay thread. There is a link to a lot of stuff being sold. Or Usedlighting have acres of kit at quite sensible prices.

 

You could just about get 6x Strand Act 6 packs and an Express 250 for your £5k (assuming you are shopping including VAT, more if thats +VAT!). They also have an Arri/ETC Mirage, which is a fabulous small desk for £600 ex. I have had one of those in a school theatre for nearly 10 years and it has worked flawlessly, and been used by some real muppets! :)

[dbuckley]

24/48ch Jester desk

 

For amateur drama without the requirement for lots of movers I really really recommend that you forget about any sort of conventional lighting desk, they are (time to get controversial) a pure waste of money. Go computerised right now.

 

Why do I believe that computers are better than desks for amateur drama?

 

A lighting desk can only be helpful when the show hits the stage. The computer can have been helping all through the rehearsal process.

 

Amateur productions typically evolve during rehearsal, and its much easier to work out what needs to be done, and in what order in the typical places amateur players rehearse and read and meet in, such as church halls, peoples houses, when you can actually be putting the show together. When you have the show, its then just a matter of programming the on-stage looiks to match what you've been scheming during rehearsals, and you've already practiced and tested the transitions and sound effects.

 

What I use is PCStage, dont waste time browsing website, its so far out of date as to be worthless, just download the software which costs nowt, and spend a few hours playing and plotting on-screen. If/when you decide its the tool for you the 512 channel interface is 250 quid. Just released there is now a 36 channel interface, which may be all you need, for half a dozen betapacks, which should be less money. The advantage of having (lots) more channels than things to plug into them is if you do decide to have movers, or more likely scrollers, or DMX foggers at some point.

 

The other thing of note is that PCStage is a full show controller, so it can do all the sound as well. Its a one computer answer to production.

 

It is possible there are other packages (or maybe even deks) better suited to the needs of amateur drama, but if there is/are, I haven't found it/them.

 

(I have no connection with the makers of PCStage other than as a very happy customer)

[GaryP]

Hi

I usually sit here as a casual observer however with someone with a nickname of "pritch" starting this thread and an interest in good lighting control I can't let this one go past. (Look at my signature for the significance).

 

Other things to watch out for are possible earth loops.

Some manufacturers do not provide isolation for DMX in their products and earth loops in this case could be a real issue.

So if the product you choose does not have isolation built into it then allow for an isolated DMX splitter.

 

If I can answer any questions you may have then please let me know.

 

Gary Pritchard

LSC Lighting Systems Australia

[Jivemaster]

Please check that the cable infrastructure will have a usefull life after all the mods, both power in and channels out. In Am Dram I would use a fader per channel desk with cue stack, The likelyhood of a PC or Laptop system still being working in 20 years is slim.

[Tomo]

Why do I believe that computers are better than desks for amateur drama?

<snip>

The other thing of note is that PCStage is a full show controller, so it can do all the sound as well. Its a one computer answer to production.

No, don't.

 

Get a 'real' lighting console, for two reasons:

Firstly, if the show goes odd you have submasters or individual channer faders to do some fast coverage - in amateur production this can happen fairly often as the cast are doing it for fun and so won't necessarily do the same blocking every time.

A PC-based solution has no physical controls.

Do you really want to have to grab the mouse and try to drag up a pair of virtual submasters, or try to use the command-line to bring up an extra area wash smoothly?

 

Secondly, a physical desk will rarely crash because everything on it was designed to work together, and if it does go down it will reboot much faster than a PC.

 

I have used HogPC for a long time on on of my ships, and it's not particularly reliable.

I acknowledge that a lot of this is because the company decided to use Win2k rather than XP, and 2k doesn't handle USB devices very well - it loses them at regular intervals for no apparent reason, and a reboot doesn't always sort this out.

 

Without the USB wings it's almost unusable - it takes absolutely ages to nudge the virtual wheels into place for position palettes!

 

I understand why the company chose it as the Hog2 hasn't been made for some time and the HogIPC is rather expensive, but it's no where near as reliable as an actual console would have been.

 

I can justify PC-based for a backup console in tight purchasing budgets, but nothing beats the real thing.

[mac.calder]

No, don't.

 

 

Secondly, a physical desk will rarely crash because everything on it was designed to work together,

 

That is the clincher. That is the reason Apple PC's are considered far more reliable than ix86's, and are faster with lower clock speeds. The tight integration between the hardware and the software is what makes a system work well - every tom, dick and harry with a bit of dosh has their own motherboard which works in a slightly different way to everyone elses, or their own chipset/GPU whatever... Want to build your own Apple PC from components - not much choice there. You buy from a range of hardware that is all extreamly similar and you know it will all work together with the operating system because the guys at apple wrote the operating system based on the hardware. ix86 operating systems are basically writen so that you install this blanket system that tries to account for millions of idiosyncrasies in devices, and the hardware is almost tailored so that it works with the operating system.

 

Now many desks are PC's with control surfaces running an almost stock standard OS - which to tell you the truth really annoys me. MUCH better performance would be gained if they either wrote the entire operating system from scratch, or if they made substantial optimisation to an open source (or purchased a license to optimise and edit the source) operating systems.

 

Now, computer DMX control has it's place - I will agree. But the physical control surface is a large part of what makes a desk appeal to me. When I have had to use PC control systems, I almost always insist on hiring in a desk for a day or two for my plotting to patch into the DMX-in - most of the usb controllers have them - the entec openUSB does (although you cannot use it as an output at the same time so I usually end up daisychaining desk->dimmers->inteligent fixtures->entec dongle as input or splitting it). You really cannot beat faders. MIDI control surfaces are nice but by the time you buy a decent surface, and a dongle, plus buying a computer, then add the time to optimise the system, well you may as well have bought a desk.

 

However I doubt the need for this to turn into another PC vs Standard Garden Variety Lighting Console

[Paul J Need]

Drop me a line if you like and we can go through various options

 

regards

 

Paul

[dbuckley]

However I doubt the need for this to turn into another PC vs Standard Garden Variety Lighting Console

Spoilsport

 

Now what was the first desk I used that had memories...? Oh yes...

 

http://www.strandarchive.co.uk/control/c_memory/tempusm24/m24closeups.jpg

 

Hmmm... that doesnt seem to have faders on it either...

[paulears]

It does occur to me that you are about to replace kit that has worked well for 30 years. Buying a PC based system may be folly. It probably won't be upgradable, or the developers even in existence in 5 years. Buy something hardware, that with moderate light use will still work for you in the dim and distant future.

[pritch]

Well, cheers for all the advice so far, folks. I've been looking at the stuff on usedlighting.co.uk as suggested by someone further up in the thread, but with the glacial pace that committees both inside amateur groups and those who award grants run at, I fear it may not be an option as the stuff is likely to be sold off before we get the money for it.

 

Please check that the cable infrastructure will have a usefull life after all the mods, both power in and channels out. In Am Dram I would use a fader per channel desk with cue stack, The likelyhood of a PC or Laptop system still being working in 20 years is slim.

 

I don't think that's an issue. Both the cabling into the grid and our three-phase incomer are fairly modern, and I'm told they are both only a few years old.

 

Firstly, if the show goes odd you have submasters or individual channer faders to do some fast coverage - in amateur production this can happen fairly often as the cast are doing it for fun and so won't necessarily do the same blocking every time.

A PC-based solution has no physical controls.

 

Secondly, a physical desk will rarely crash because everything on it was designed to work together, and if it does go down it will reboot much faster than a PC.

 

Valid points there. I'm considering grabbing myself some sort of USB dongle for my laptop myself, just in case the worst should happen and we find ourself with no desk with minutes to go before the show, but that's purely as a backup solution.

 

Whilst I'm well aware that any memory desk is far more likely to crash than our old 100% manual one, I'd rather not increase the chances of it happening. Blue cyc of death, anyone? :)

[CornishLampie]

I work in Kidz'r'us in St Ives and is the same thing apart that its for kids from 4 up to 19. We have 2 Zero 88 chilli 24 channel DMX dimmers hard patch to 6 bars and we have a Zero 88 Fat Frog. It a very nice setup and the desk is very simple when you get your head around it. Have a look in to it.

 

 

http://www.zero88.com/en/products/1/28 (dimmer)

http://www.zero88.com/en/products/2/9 (desk)

 

Dan