Finding appropriate moving heads

[Teddy]

Hi All. Merry seasonal retail sales event.

 

This is a little speculative at the moment but one of the venues I'm reguarly in is potentially looking at getting some movers in to upgrade the FOH bar, struggling to find something suitable so thought I'd throw it out to the hive mind to see if theres any ideas.

The venuue is a 400 cap theatre. the SWL on the bar is pretty low so weight is a key factor, its currently loaded with 12 Source4's but the house guys want to swap some out for something a little more versatile as its a real bum to focus quickly for one nighters.

Roughly speaking, their wish list is Low Weight, decent zoom range, CMY is nice but not a must have, but CTO would be good, shutters would be again nice, but not a must have, not fussed on light source. We've hired LED washes in before and rigged FOH and liked it, but a spot/profile would be more appropriate.

 

Any ideas would be good, its been a real head scratcher. Used/discontinued wouldnt be an issue here if theres something a little more 'heritage' that would suit

Thanks :)

Edited December 25, 2020 by Teddy

[strand600X]

Hi

Ive just bought a couple of Ayra Ero 150 BSW. Can't fault them. As the name suggests its a beam, spot and a wash you select from the desk.

BAz

[alistermorton]

Are they good? At the price they've got to be worth looking at.

[dje]

I have to say that I have never found a cheap moving head profile with beam shaping, that doesn't suck.

 

Motorised framing shutters are just notorious for maintenance issues. Anyone who ever had to tour VL1000s will not dispute this. In the big name, big fixtures it's been addressed in more recent fixtures. But the technology hasn't really made it down to the affordable stuff yet. The cheapest moving head profiles I can think of are probably the Elation Fuze and the Chauvet Maverick Mk2. The former seems to retail at around £4k and the latter around £6k. In the used market, you might find something cheaper... but size is liable to be an issue. Shutters are mostly found on bigger fixtures, which then start to affect you in terms of the weight (which you say is an issue), but in a small venue the fan noise could also be problematic.

 

I seriously want to say to you that I would suggest looking for better ways to access the FOH bar, than trying to find a cost-effective moving head profile. Whilst yes you could probably have 4 or 6 doing the work of 12 conventionals... the cost is still going to be high, whichever way you do it.

 

Or of course you sacrifice beam shaping, and in the cheaper stuff potentially sacrifice colour temperature correction too (relying on RGBW "CTO" is mostly OK for the naked eye, less so for cameras, if that's an issue for you). But there's going to be a serious hit on aesthetics if you take away your beam shaping capabilities.

 

I've worked with so so many venues who've romanticised about replacing FOH focusses with moving heads. Every attempt has failed and either culled the idea once they saw the quotes, or they've gone for it and in no time they've gone back to their conventionals and rigged the movers over the stage. Even in relatively high budget venues who could afford decent stock.

 

What sort of size is this venue? Basically your cheapest and most effective option is going to be buying better access, I would think. Whether that's just a decent zarges or zip-up tower, or something more elaborate like beefing up the FOH points and installing a catwalk or crawl truss.

 

Or another option could be to consider pole op Source 4 bodies (and keep your lenses). That could be a good middle ground, removing the need to get up high but coming in much cheaper than movers. You could continue to use ladder/tower for gel and lamp changes, or even look at moving over to pantographs.

Edited December 26, 2020 by dje

[strand600X]

Are they good? At the price they've got to be worth looking at.

 

 

I use them as back lighting and as I said I cannot fault them.

[Andyb]

Can vouch for the Elation Fuze Profiles. As a cost effective framing shutter led profile, they are awesome. We put 18 into hire a few months before lockdown. Happy to sort a sales quote if you are interested.

 

We are selling ex hire our robe 600e spots which have been solid workhorses, but made redundant by the fuze profiles.

 

Andrew@enlx.co.uk if you would like prices on anything.

 

Andrew @ Enlightened.

[Jevans]

...I seriously want to say to you that I would suggest looking for better ways to access the FOH bar, than trying to find a cost-effective moving head profile. Whilst yes you could probably have 4 or 6 doing the work of 12 conventionals... the cost is still going to be high, whichever way you do it....

 

Lots of sensible thoughts from dje here; I wouldn't in the slightest consider a small DJ-class mover equivalent to a Source 4, particually a mover that only costs a couple of times more than a conventional S4!

 

Another important consideration for me, particually in small venues, is noise. Although conventionals usually have the fillament sing, movers have motors, fans and switch mode power supplies, and particually in FOH positons this can get very exposed to the audience. If you're doing a rock musical, fair enough; but I've been in the position of lighting drama with some noisy movers up FOH, and sensitive dialogue scenes are pretty much ruined for me by the noise of many fans whiring away overhead. You'll never get that 'pin-drop silence', even when you're not moving anything the motors may need to be active to hold the head in position against gravity. The sound designer isn't likely to be too keen either...

 

Also consider repairs and maintenance - there's not a lot to go wrong on a conventional profile (unless you drop one and smash things...) and almost nothing that can't be fixed with a multitool; the only spare I think I've really had to fit to an S4 is the lamp base/tails. For movers - electronics, PSUs, motors, mechanisms, sensors... and the cheaper the brand the less likely there will be spares availible at all, never mind in 10 years. A really cheap mover is more likely to be 'disposable' - when it breaks it's gone. Depending on your use case/cost structure this may be acceptable for you - or it may not.

 

I'd be thinking laterally about the problem - if specifically focusing a basic frontwash for one-nighters is the issue, could a second set of S4s be rigged on another bar and left permenantly in that focus? Perhaps a simple deadhung bar nearby, leaving the current bar for a 'focusable' set of fixtures. Or turning the existing bar into a ladder by atttaching another bar below the fixtures - top level is a fixed frontwash, bottom level is for focusing. Without knowing the full context of course difficult to say but don't be afraid to explore this sort of thing too as well as buying new toys! :)

Edited December 26, 2020 by Jevans

[dje]

I'd be thinking laterally about the problem - if specifically focusing a basic frontwash for one-nighters is the issue, could a second set of S4s be rigged on another bar and left permenantly in that focus? Perhaps a simple deadhung bar nearby, leaving the current bar for a 'focusable' set of fixtures. Or turning the existing bar into a ladder by atttaching another bar below the fixtures - top level is a fixed frontwash, bottom level is for focusing. Without knowing the full context of course difficult to say but don't be afraid to explore this sort of thing too as well as buying new toys! :)

 

That's absolutely my thinking too.

 

If the problem is "our FOH bar is tricky to focus"... there are many solutions. Moving head profiles probably being one of the costlier ways, with a range of other inherent drawbacks as we've both alluded to.

 

You are really trying to replace apples with oranges (and both costlier and inferior oranges at that), on the sole merit that you can't peel the apple by hand. It would probably be better and cheaper to buy an apple peeler.

 

I think every small theatre thinks they're waiting for the cost of moving head profiles to come down to a level where they never have to climb their ladder or tallescope again. The reality is seldom so simple.

Edited December 27, 2020 by dje

[Bryson]

The fixture that best fits the requirements is probably a VL1100, but I'm unclear from VL/Phillips/Strands terrible website if they even still make them. Also, many pennies.

 

They do seem to show up as used quite a lot, which may not be a vote of confidence...

 

I do like the Elation Fuze Profiles and end up specifying them quite a lot...but they're not light, certainly significantly more load than the S4s. Mind you, neither is the 1100. Weight may be a severely limiting factor here.

[dje]

indeed Bryson, my memory of VL1100s is that they were very expensive. But also, very big. And due to the fact that they have a long, heavy 'head'; with a tiny 'base' (bit that doesn't move), basically they exert a fair bit of G on the supporting structure. Fine on a heavy fly bar but in a small theatre liable to cause a bit of a ruckus if their movement speed is not kept under control by the operator.

 

I'm still voting there's probably no good solution to this... besides doubling the number of lamps on the front truss, and having one set left in a general stage wash focus for the shows where focussing time is too limited. That's how I've always done it.

[timsabre]

I'm still voting there's probably no good solution to this... besides doubling the number of lamps on the front truss, and having one set left in a general stage wash focus for the shows where focussing time is too limited. That's how I've always done it.

Having worked in a couple of venues which have replaced their FOH with moving head profiles, I would say that it is a good solution, if you can afford to buy the right fixtures and have suitable rigging. The major plus point is that focusing time is vastly reduced and obviously no working at height required.You don't need to go to the extremes of VariLite, there's quite a few "lower cost" LED profiles with controllable beamshaping now, such as Martin's ERA800, Chauvet Maverick Mk2/3, Elation Fuze profile.

 

[dje]

Yes - sorry you are right... it is a good solution, my wording was a little hasty.

 

 

I meant good solution to this particular enquiry. I casually assumed that with their low-SWL FOH bar, and the likely budgetary constraints of a 400-seat theatre... might preclude buying a sufficient quantity of moving head profiles to replace 12 Source 4s.

 

Sure if the budget stretches to it and the rigging could be improved to support the additional weights, then it would indeed be a good solution.

 

With regards to lower cost... I previously alluded to the availability of the Elation and the Chauvet in my first post... but as I put it then, the costs of those are still £4k and £6k per unit respectively, and having looked up the Martin that seems to be more like £10k... so to put 6 of any of these on your advance bar you'd be looking in the £25-30k region and that's before any costs of beefing up the rigging.

Edited January 7, 2021 by dje

[Junior8]

Let's be realistic here. Most venues haven't taken serious money or indeed any cash in months and most acts haven't either. If it's too much of a faff to focus for one nighters put in a basic wash with the S4s buy some scrollers and tell the acts that's all you're getting. Yes it's tough but they either take it or leave it. If they want the work they'll take it. It'd be at least £30k cheaper! Edited January 7, 2021 by Junior8

[timsabre]

It's certainly expensive upfront but if it saves 2hrs a day focusing up a tallescope or releases crew to do something else then maybe it would work out financially.

The original poster (who does not appear to have returned to this thread) didn't say it had to be cheap, they wanted something which would make refocusing easier.

[Junior8]

Sorry - I was convinced the word cheap was in the OP! I agree with the general point though and in past lives there have been a few places which had the odd position where I would have given my right arm for a mover to save a tricky ladder climb but whether I'd have given - or been given - £5K a time is another matter. I am still, after all these years, continually amazed at the spaces, usually local multi-use, which are turned out with no thought for ease of access at all. Edited January 7, 2021 by Junior8