PFL with stage-box mixer

[richardash1981]

Another topic coming out of band wanting to upgrade their equipment. The history is roughly this:

1. They had (have) a Peavy Escort 6000 portable PA. I found it very hard to balance because of limited EQs, no PFL bus. Also no proper auxes for monitoring so they found it hard to hear much, especially once they got a drummer.
2. I took my Soundcraft EPM12 along and retreated to the back with an analogue multicore and pair of closed-back headphones (SudioSpares M1000). Suddenly I can work out which voice is which and the balance starts to work, aided by sensible EQ. Two auxes helps with monitor mixes.
3. I have been leant a Yamaha 01V (original version). It's bigger and heavier, but more powerful EA and dynamics for every channel. Four auxes means that they can have four separate monitor feeds, fewer amps on stage.
4. The band are slightly spooked by depending on a pile of kit I bring along in case I can't make it to a gig. Hence a desire to upgrade their kit to be more stand-alone.

Several of the musicians also play for another band which has bought itself a Behringer XR18 rack mixer (slightly my suggestion). Difference is that band doesn't have a sound engineer normally, they rely on the bassist setting up before they start. I haven't seem them with this rig, but they are happy with it. The XR18 has plenty of inputs, and with 6 aux outs should be OK for sends. But how do I manage PFL with the mixer in a rack at the side of the stage?Looking at the manual, the control software has solo buttons and there is a solo bus with a range of adjustments like level dipping, but I can't see any information about how your hear the result.

Is it just the headphone jack on the mixer rack, and I need to make up a long headphone cable / get an IEM set to let me get off stage? I can't imagine doing any serious mixing without extensive use of the PFLs to confirm what is coming in on which channel (am I just old-fashioned about this?), but it doesn't seem to get mentioned much.

[timsabre]

Yes you need an iem set or similar to get remote headphones with an xr18. Have seen people using Bluetooth headphones too.

 

It seems a shame that the headphone signal can't be sent over the WiFi to the controlling tablet but I think there'd be a delay in the audio which would make it unusable.

Edited February 26, 2020 by timsabre

[richardash1981]

Yes you need an iem set or similar to get remote headphones with an xr18. Have seen people using Bluetooth headphones too.

 

It seems a shame that the headphone signal can't be sent over the WiFi to the controlling tablet but I think there'd be a delay in the audio which would make it unusable.

Thank you.

I thought that was the case, but good to have it confirmed. I suspect sharing the same WiFi channel as control wouldn't do anything for reliability and responsiveness of the control, even if latency could be managed.

Now someone had a budget Ch70 IEM set ...

[John_P]

On the Xair software you have metering on every channel which should be enough to make sure you have a healthy signal level and you can label each channel in the layout section. Make sure you buy an external router - dual band or 5GHz as the internal wifi on the xr18 is garbage. Then just walk out front during sound check with your tablet and set up the mix and save it. Not quite as intuitive to adjust the mix from the stage as an analogue desk but you'll get used to it and the app is very easy to use.

[timsabre]

It's true you can manage without headphones / pfl but if you're used to having it, wireless headphones is the only way.

 

I don't really agree about the need for an external router either, my xr16 has never dropped out using the internal wifi. Having read some other comments about it I bought an access point jist in case but never needed it. I guess it may depend on the room size and audience size.

[richardash1981]

My concern is that it's a musically fluid bunch. The singers are quite capable of swapping parts between songs (and I don't do rehearsals to have all this worked out), so it's not always obvious (at least to me) who I can hear and who I can't. It took until the first gig with the EPM12 for me to figure out which of the two regular female singers was singing above the melody line, and which below. That didn't do my efforts to balance the parts much good! Same sort of problem with two acoustic guitarists strumming away: if I can only hear one, which is it?

[paulears]

Go to some rehearsals! Seriously - if you want to do a good job of mixing a band, then you need to pick up some serious mixing skills quickly. When you mix one-offs, with no history then you really need to be a musician. Technical people are reactive - you have to guess which fader will control what you hear. A guitarist seeing two guitars knows exactly who is playing what. Two singers is more difficult, but the tone of their voice is the key here. They won't be identical, they will be identifiable by their voice. If you do big band live balancing this can be the hardest, as Glenn Miller for example, had the habit of passing the melody all over the place a phrase or two at a time, and unless you know the clarinet picks it up for four bars, you treat the audience to the harmony, not the melody.

 

No shortcut here I'm afraid.

[richardash1981]

Go to some rehearsals! Seriously - if you want to do a good job of mixing a band, then you need to pick up some serious mixing skills quickly. When you mix one-offs, with no history then you really need to be a musician. Technical people are reactive - you have to guess which fader will control what you hear. A guitarist seeing two guitars knows exactly who is playing what. Two singers is more difficult, but the tone of their voice is the key here. They won't be identical, they will be identifiable by their voice. If you do big band live balancing this can be the hardest, as Glenn Miller for example, had the habit of passing the melody all over the place a phrase or two at a time, and unless you know the clarinet picks it up for four bars, you treat the audience to the harmony, not the melody.

 

As far as I am aware rehearsals for this group consist of one or two sessions a year spent learning new material (for which they don't rig any sound kit, and don't ask me along), and the hour before each event when they run through that event's songs (and hopefully I have managed to get the sound system set up and working, depending on what surprises they brought me ...). I haven't found the latter terribly helpful in getting to understand how the various musicians fit together.

 

I would claim to be a musician (and to have been one before I was a technical operator), but "classical" brass and woodwind ensemble playing is not always that helpful with a guitars / bass / keys / drums line-up where I am less familiar with the relationship between how the player's hands move and what sounds come out. With the two female singers, I I had no great trouble knowing there were two voices, one higher and one lower. But I got it wrong as to which person (channel) was which, as both sing quite unlike their speaking voices.

[paulears]

I guess then it's just as good as it can be. One of the reasons why my band have the same sound guy and hate it when a new one has to take over. It's just impossible to expect them to wing it and get it right. When I took over as bass player - the bass player and I did a swap. He wasn't too well - the Big C, so found performing took it out of him too much. I took over, and would do the PA in, and setup, and then Pete just mixed. He knew very little about PA, but his ears were all he needed and with the faders all marked, he knew exactly how we should sound, and what our voices sounded like so it worked perfectly for a few years until he passed away.

 

I guess you just have to do the best you can with this lot - who seem a bit uninterested in sound improvements!