Taking our own ladders into a venue

[PeterT]

Some Background...

 

I work for a FE/ HE college in the drama department. We have several studios but no theatre of our own so we use a local 200 seat place owned by the Town Council. We pay them an extortionate amount per year to have all-day access plus extra evenings when we have shows (3 or 4 times a year)

 

They have a part-time technician and part-time manager and we provide all tech for our own shows using their gear sometimes supplemented with ours (digi desk etc.)

 

They have a Zarges 10 rung ladder that gets used for rigging but I think the tech hates it (he's not good with heights) as they now have this fancy MEWP.

 

I was informed by a member of College staff today that he spoke to the manager last week about an up-coming show there and he was told that from Tomorrow (22/04) the Zarges will be gone and only the MEWP will be available so therefore only the House Tech will be allowed to rig anything and he's only in a few days per week. I believe we will be able to be trained on the MEWP but will still have to be supervised by the House Tech so that won't help.

 

I said we should then take our own ladders in as we're covered by College insurance to use them but apparently that's not allowed by the venue.

 

I do realise it's a case of 'My Gaff, my rules' but can they really stop us bringing in a set of ladders that we're allowed to use at our own venue? Bearing in mind we have paid to hire the place and as the Tech isn't in on a Monday has now pushed the schedule back by a day.

[J Pearce]

Their venue, their rules; though I'd suggest a negotiation ought to take place, as hiring a theatre where no rigging/focussing can take place where that has previously been the arrangement seems a somewhat unprofessional setup. Perhaps the council could swap the tech's days or get a casual/contractor in to supervise you, or do some training and assessment on your ability to operate the MEWP so that you could operate it without supervision.

 

Make it clear that you're a customer and what you're getting doesn't meet the expectations of hiring a venue.

[w/robe]

What does the hire agreement say and has it changed in the light of the new rules.

If the venue has become effectively useless 3 days a week then there is no point in you paying for it when the tech is not in.

 

If your rent is really extortionate and you are effectively renting the venue full time then perhaps you need to look at leasing it from the council.

[Andrew C]

It smells a bit like you are being "politiced out".

 

I've seen it done to other "problem" hires.

"Oh, you want to show slides in this large venue. We'll sub-hire a f'koff great Barco at £CHING, and a crap slide scanner". "Oh dear, doesn't it look good? Who cares?"

 

"You want front lighting on the stage?" Nah, can't use the slots in the roof, the Pars char the wood." "Profiles? Nope, got none of those."

[Tomo]

I disagree.

This has every indication of being a council management decree banning ladders, being unaware of the effect on the various business units.

 

I have been in more than one safety meeting where the H&S rep was very proud that he'd banned ladders, until somebody pointed out that a lot of the fee-paying work in the last year could not have been done safely without a ladder.

Ladders are one of several things that the HSE "Mythbuster" team are quite interested in, pointing H&S Officers in their direction has often helped.

 

The venue and especially the technician are likely to be your allies here.

The technician is probably even more irritated - there are many jobs where a ladder is by far the safest way to do something.

It also sounds like you and your students have previously covered most of the work-at-height during your hire, which they will have much preferred!

 

It sounds like the upper management have made unreasonable changes, making the venue useless to you for a significant proportion of your previously-negotiated days.

 

A review of the contract is definitely in order.

[Junior8]

I do realise it's a case of 'My Gaff, my rules' but can they really stop us bringing in a set of ladders that we're allowed to use at our own venue? Bearing in mind we have paid to hire the place and as the Tech isn't in on a Monday has now pushed the schedule back by a day.

 

Of course they can - they can impose what conditions they want. And it is not unusual. I could cite one prestigious venue near here where only house staff - or those trained and approved by the venue - are allowed anywhere near the grid and bridges. The people to ask are the venue, they may have very good reasons that you (and more importantly of course we) don't know about.

 

 

 

 

 

[paulears]

I think you need to re-negotiate, on the basis that their new policy makes your previous schedules and planning impossible to meet now. Of course, this is a risk, as they could be waiting for you to leave?

 

A theatre I know had a manager who hated the local amateurs - being a charity, they were eligible for a discount in the hire fees, knew the building and staff well, so knew exactly what really was possible, and blocked out higher grossing shows from the yearly calendar. He would have rejoiced an annual 'problem' client going elsewhere. This, of course, they did do in the end.

 

On the other side - whatever rules they put into place from the signing of the next contract, are whatever they like. You could have some wiggle room if you signed, then they changed the rules, causing extra expense or lower quality from you.

 

When I visit other venues, and they have the increasingly common red lights for the rigging/in period, you have to follow it. I can think of many venues where taking in a ladder would be totally out.

 

Think practically. I assume in your venue you have a ladder register? You have all your ladders numbered, and then inspected regularly with the results in the book/spreadsheet? How would you cope with somebody turning up with their ladder to use in your premises? You'd have to inspect it, label it, record the details - could you do that when they walk in the door?

[johnlinford]

Think practically. I assume in your venue you have a ladder register? You have all your ladders numbered, and then inspected regularly with the results in the book/spreadsheet? How would you cope with somebody turning up with their ladder to use in your premises? You'd have to inspect it, label it, record the details - could you do that when they walk in the door?

 

Otherwise with you, but not sure I agree with this at all! If I booked a window cleaner, I'd expect them to bring the suitable technology to clean the first floor windows - why is that any different from rigging lights? As a contractor, we take ladders in to event spaces all the time - they expect us to prove we have inspection and maintenance regimes in place - why would they need to register our ladders?

 

The building management may choose to take issue with it as a way to force you out, or maybe they've had too many people doing silly things and don't trust companies that hire their spaces to be safe or sensible without supervision in place. There's plenty of precedent and good practice for bringing your own access equipment to a site. Can't hurt to take a "Here's evidence of our ladder inspection regime and ladder use training and here's the RAMS for the rigging plan we've got, would it be ok to bring our own access equipment" line and see how they respond.

[paulears]

I guess it's down to the venues and the knowledge of their systems people. Some venues simply don't trust outsiders, and they work on the principle that if an accident happens, then they'll be responsible.

 

I'd tend to agree with the concept of teams coming in with their kit if they are contractors. They would have their own insurance, trained people and would be a separate entity, contracted to do a job. This is very different from a dance school arriving with an old ladder (or brand new one from B&Q) arriving roped to an old trailer ready to hang a mirror ball from a convenient sky hook? I'd like to have rules that enable the first example while preventing the second.

[peza2010]

Ask them if you can use the mewp if you have an ipaf license...

 

If yes then get yourself booked on a course.

[gibbothegreat]

The thing about council venues (I work for one) is that there is often a pretty easy work-around: complain to a councillor. I've lost count of the number of times a client, to whom we've said no on a matter of policy, has gone to a councillor with the inevitable outcome of the word coming down from higher levels to 'just do it.' The council has a policy of banning performing animals, so I'm afraid we couldn't allow you to put on a show in which your pet dog featured. Councillor gets involved, dog is allowed - and we're not even allowed to insist on welfare provision for it. Get a councillor on your side, and the decision will be made by an officer who typically will have no direct contact with the venue, being 3 or 4 levels up the management chain, and very little understanding of the actual issue (being 3 or 4 levels up the management chain...)