D&b rigs

[BlueShift]

Ok, so heres the deal

 

Im just about to be purchasing a new d&b rig which is gonna be 2xci7 tops, 2xCi7 subs and 2 x Ci90 tops.

 

now I have been looking at the d&b amps - the D12's which seem like amazing amps, but they are seriously pricey. for the above config we were looking at 2x d12 amps and 2 epacs which comes to around 7500 GBP. however, a set of QSC amps or Crown amps and a DBX driverack 480 comes in at over 4000 GBP less than the d&b amps.

 

So my question is, forgetting sensdrive, is there any reason why you cant run the d&b speakers off of the qsc's and a driverack? all the dsp onboard the d12 can be mimicked using the driveracks eq functions. and the limiters aboard the driverack can make sure I dont overdrive the speakers. Budget is a big issue here - so can I do this?

 

Cheers

[Mr.Si]

From what I have heard, from hire companies which use the stuff, I am of the understanding that you can't use amps other than d&b audio technik because the amps and speakers are efficiency matched to each other.

 

Other amps will not drive the speakers

The d&b amps will blow other speakers.

 

Or so I was told by other users.

 

 

But thinking about it, I can't see why you'd want d&b speakers without using their amps - otherwise you won't get the best out of your system.

[BlueShift]

From what I have heard, from hire companies which use the stuff, I am of the understanding that you can't use amps other than d&b audio technik because the amps and speakers are efficiency matched to each other.

 

Other amps will not drive the speakers

The d&b amps will blow other speakers.

 

Or so I was told by other users.

 

 

But thinking about it, I can't see why you'd want d&b speakers without using their amps - otherwise you won't get the best out of your system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have no objection to the d&b amps - I think they are great, but this is a budget concious system where a 4.5k gap seemed like something worth exploring. just wanted to check it out. its hard to get an objective opinion from d&b themselves ** laughs out loud **, they just wanna sell me stuff :). but dont get me wrong, the amps are top notch, and if budget wasnt a concern I'd get them in a heartbeat

 

I appreciate the feedback

[Big Dave]

You can use other amps to drive D&B but you'll never get the best out of the system. The controller in the amp compensates for small flaws in the speaker design (this isn't just something that applies to D&B, most major manufacturers will recommend a certain range of amplifiers to use with their speakers). Using a driverack will compensate for frequency response but thats it.

 

Also, I seem to remember that if you use D&B amps with their speakers, D&B offer a lifetime guarantee on the drivers as the amps offer sufficient protection against damage.

 

Oh, a D12 set to run in Linear mode will act as a normal amplifier and drive any speaker you like.

 

I'm assuming that since you've mentioned the "I" versions of the speakers that this is for an install.

[BlueShift]

You can use other amps to drive D&B but you'll never get the best out of the system.  The controller in the amp compensates for small flaws in the speaker design (this isn't just something that applies to D&B, most major manufacturers will recommend a certain range of amplifiers to use with their speakers).  Using a driverack will compensate for frequency response but thats it.

 

Also, I seem to remember that if you use D&B amps with their speakers, D&B offer a lifetime guarantee on the drivers as the amps offer sufficient protection against damage.

 

Oh, a D12 set to run in Linear mode will act as a normal amplifier and drive any speaker you like.

 

I'm assuming that since you've mentioned the "I" versions of the speakers that this is for an install.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah, thats what I figured.

 

See our current kit is all nexo, which is kind of the same deal (apart from their controller is not integrated into an amp) and you can drive nexo's fine with out a TD controller, but it just isnt as good.

 

I mean ultimately, any d&b DSP stuff can be mimicked, I was wondering how much other stuff is included in that amp that makes a difference.

 

And yes this is for an install, its a warehouse about 40-60m long and 25-30m wide running in a width-ways config (ie, stage is in the middle of one of the long walls). prolly gonna have 2 ci7 tops and ci90 fills with two c7 subs.

[PoppaDom]

Sounds like the system you are configuring is for a high end application?

 

The fact that you state you can afford the cabinets but not the amplifiers suggests to me that the d&b (yes it is a good system) may be, as a whole, out of your budget??

 

Spending that amount of money on the cabinets and skimping on the amplifiers you might as well purchase a slightly cheaper system that is full configured to work together? In my opinion the results you will achieve will be significantly better buying a cheaper system configured to work together over a half and half system...

 

For such a significant investment I would seriously consider your options and either purchase the right amps for the job or examine your system options.

 

Just my opinion though...

 

Poppadom

[BlueShift]

Sounds like the system you are configuring is for a high end application?

 

The fact that you state you can afford the cabinets but not the amplifiers suggests to me that the d&b (yes it is a good system) may be, as a whole, out of your budget??

 

Spending that amount of money on the cabinets and skimping on the amplifiers you might as well purchase a slightly cheaper system that is full configured to work together? In my opinion the results you will achieve will be significantly better buying a cheaper system configured to work together over a half and half system...

 

For such a significant investment I would seriously consider your options and either purchase the right amps for the job or examine your system options.

 

Just my opinion though...

 

Poppadom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

thanks

 

yeah its pretty high end. we can afford the amps - I just thought a 4.5k saving was worth exploring. We are budget concsious, but our budget is substantially more than the d&b speakers and amps alone will cost, its just that 4.5k is a lot of money that could go toward lighting rigs, the new portable system we need etc...

 

its not that we cant afford the amps, but if all it was going to take was a few hours configuring a dsp with some limiters to save 4.5k then I'd go for it - the d&b manual only documents the dsp features (and sensedrive) so it was unclear exactly how it was configured.

 

Looks like we will be getting a pair of d12's and a pair of epacs

[PoppaDom]

Ahh fair enough then...makes sense enough to me now.

 

Poppadom

[Mr.Si]

I was gonna suggest something like Big Dave too, but I'm glad you've decided to go down the full d&b route. it's great stuff.

 

Rock on Blueshift!

 

Ooh, where are you from? cause I have also worked with SF at Soul Survivor (2003), it was great.

[BlueShift]

I was gonna suggest something like Big Dave too, but I'm glad you've decided to go down the full d&b route. it's great stuff.

 

Rock on Blueshift!

 

Ooh, where are you from? cause I have also worked with SF at Soul Survivor (2003), it was great.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

im living in chorleywood right now. I wasnt down at Soul Survivor in 2003, I was living in australia at that point - I was there last year for teh festivals and I also worked down at the trafalgar square gig at the close of soul in the city. Currently I work for the church managing their production

 

I have never had any doubt the d&b righ would rock (at the SS festivals I did sound in pulse and we had a rig of 4xc7 tops, 8xc7 subs, 6xmax monitors, 2xc6 fills and it was great) I just cant ignore a potential 4.5k saving be ignored :)

 

Cheers

[Guest AdamJames]

Other amps will not drive the speakers

The d&b amps will blow other speakers.

 

Sort of. The efficientcy of D&B relys on the amp. Epacs, D12s etc will blow other speakers and vic versa. Remember that all a C7 needs is 650W to achieve 133dB+ where as throw a QSC or the like into a C7 and it not like it. At 2-3K a box, hmm do you really wanna risk it?

 

You can use other amps to drive D&B but you'll never get the best out of the system. The controller in the amp compensates for small flaws in the speaker design (this isn't just something that applies to D&B, most major manufacturers will recommend a certain range of amplifiers to use with their speakers). Using a driverack will compensate for frequency response but thats it.

 

I doupt if Wigwam or Sound Foundation will be pleased to receive a C7 that has been plugged into a Crown or QSC!!!

 

Thats rubbish Dave, its not just about the driving of the system that makes the D&B system unique. Also, if you look in a D&B driver you will see a fluid type of thing, this is a cooling system. When the driver gets to a certain tempatures, there is a signal that goes back to the amp telling it 'tempature is ok'.

 

When the thing is being overloaded etc, there is a signal going back to the amp saying 'driver too hot, shut down'. This puts the amp into thermal thingy, and the liquid cools down the driver. Then if/when the driver gets to the 'correct' temperature, the amps is taken out of thermal thingy.

 

A very very clever system - is this going to work with a QSC or Crown? No its not.

 

The two pins the system runs off (2 pins on the EP5) is not just driving the system; its also a temperature sensor and various other things.

 

The pure efficientcy and clleverness that has gone into the design is amazing.

 

I have done gigs in Grosvonor house and the like, and I have run the system off a 16A socket. How efficient is that?

 

You pay 8-10K a stack, wonder why?

 

Do D&B want amps like phonic etc in them NO they don't. ######### to what other people tell you; other amps WILL kill D&B, if not immediatly, slowly. Its a fag cos a P1200 or whatever is 2K, but you get what you pay for.

 

Hope this helps.

[Big Dave]

Thats rubbish Dave, its not just about the driving of the system that makes the D&B system unique. Also, if you look in a D&B driver you will see a fluid type of thing, this is a cooling system. When the driver gets to a certain tempatures, there is a signal that goes back to the amp telling it 'tempature is ok'.

 

When the thing is being overloaded etc, there is a signal going back to the amp saying 'driver too hot, shut down'. This puts the amp into thermal thingy, and the liquid cools down the driver. Then if/when the driver gets to the 'correct' temperature, the amps is taken out of thermal thingy.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

If only it was actually that clever!(and if it was I'm sure John Taylor would shout a whole lot louder about it) The only temperature the amp monitors is its own. If you look at the system monitoring of a D12 either through the menu display or Rope C, the only information it gives is what the amp is doing (amp temperature, power consumption, impedance level and headroom). The amp goes into protect when it starts doing something it not supposed to or when it exceeds pre defined parameters. If, for example, you plug an E3 into a D12 or P1200 set up for a C7 and you drive it hard, you will eventually kill the speaker - the amp will not stop that as it thinks its driving a C7. The A1 mainframe used to have a speaker ID system for B2's etc but the P1200 certainly didn't.

 

Sensdrive, which is what Pin 5 of the EP5 of used for, compensates for properties of the cables you are using to connect to your subs to give tighter LF response. However, many companies use NL4 connectors and not EP5 so sensdrive does not function but the system still functions perfectly well.

 

Personally, as someone who spends 60% of my time out with D&B systems, I wouldn't dream of using D&B with anything apart from D&B amps and I would be very upset if someone supplied me with a system that didn't have P1200/A1/D12s. all I was saying is you can if you've had your brain removed and you really really want to but I wouldn't recommend it.

[Guest AdamJames]

Pin 5 on EP5?

 

Pin 5 is not used.

 

We ALWAYS use 4 core cable.

[Big Dave]

Copied from the Sensdrive section of my D&B tech folder:-

 

SenseDrive is applied to all d&b subwoofer cabinets using

the 5 pin EP5 connector, provided the cabinet input is

wired for SenseDrive with a link between pin 4 and pin 5

of the cabinet EP5 input connector. This is available in all

Q subwoofer cabinets and other subwoofer cabinets

manufactured with EP5 connectors since April 2003, see 9.

SenseDrive is also applied to the LF drivers of the d&b M2

and F1222 2-way active cabinets.

The loudspeaker cables used require 5 conductors with all

5 pins of the EP5 connected. When 4-wire cables are

used SenseDrive will not be enabled.

[BlueShift]

Other amps will not drive the speakers

The d&b amps will blow other speakers.

 

Sort of. The efficientcy of D&B relys on the amp. Epacs, D12s etc will blow other speakers and vic versa. Remember that all a C7 needs is 650W to achieve 133dB+ where as throw a QSC or the like into a C7 and it not like it. At 2-3K a box, hmm do you really wanna risk it?

 

You can use other amps to drive D&B but you'll never get the best out of the system. The controller in the amp compensates for small flaws in the speaker design (this isn't just something that applies to D&B, most major manufacturers will recommend a certain range of amplifiers to use with their speakers). Using a driverack will compensate for frequency response but thats it.

 

I doupt if Wigwam or Sound Foundation will be pleased to receive a C7 that has been plugged into a Crown or QSC!!!

 

Thats rubbish Dave, its not just about the driving of the system that makes the D&B system unique. Also, if you look in a D&B driver you will see a fluid type of thing, this is a cooling system. When the driver gets to a certain tempatures, there is a signal that goes back to the amp telling it 'tempature is ok'.

 

When the thing is being overloaded etc, there is a signal going back to the amp saying 'driver too hot, shut down'. This puts the amp into thermal thingy, and the liquid cools down the driver. Then if/when the driver gets to the 'correct' temperature, the amps is taken out of thermal thingy.

 

A very very clever system - is this going to work with a QSC or Crown? No its not.

 

The two pins the system runs off (2 pins on the EP5) is not just driving the system; its also a temperature sensor and various other things.

 

The pure efficientcy and clleverness that has gone into the design is amazing.

 

I have done gigs in Grosvonor house and the like, and I have run the system off a 16A socket. How efficient is that?

 

You pay 8-10K a stack, wonder why?

 

Do D&B want amps like phonic etc in them NO they don't. ######### to what other people tell you; other amps WILL kill D&B, if not immediatly, slowly. Its a fag cos a P1200 or whatever is 2K, but you get what you pay for.

 

Hope this helps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

yeah I figured as much. but as I say, I never had my heart set on getting other amps I was simply exploring the reasons for the 4.5k difference in price between d&b amps and others. there is no doubt they are excellent systems having used a few so I have no problem going for the d12's. But since I have a hard enough time getting any budget its always important to explore all the options and make sure we dont overlook any possible savings.