DSP - simple programming?

[howartp]

Hi,

 

Our school theatre opened three years ago with (initially/temporarily) a Xilica 8x8 but swiftly replaced by Symmetrix Symnet 8x8 after the installers couldn't get their head around the Xilica software (they were regular Symmetrix users).

 

The Symmetrix has been in situ for three years, but every time I try and touch it I get lost with it and at the moment I daren't do anything with it in case I screw up the core functionality of it.

 

The theatre has two distinct functions; the stage area is used for drama lessons 25 sessions per week, with lectern containing PC, dual monitors, mic plus an input plate for laptop/iPhone etc. The same lectern is used for assemblies and staff meetings etc. Then obviously the theatre is used for productions where the sound/light booth has everything you'd expect. Both the lectern and the booth have a touchscreen control system (Vimaty Vity if you're familiar with them) to control 95% of the systems in the room.

 

The 8x8 is roughly the following:

 

Inputs:

 

1: Main L

2: Main R

3: Lectern Mic

4: Lectern Audio (local 4x4 audio switch between PC, laptop and aux)

5-8: Classroom radio mics (for class assessments)

 

Outputs:

 

1: Main L

2: Main R

3: Mid L }

4: Mid R } cross-fed from inputs 1&2

5-8: Patchbay outputs

 

I would like to replace this Symmetrix with a 12x8 of some sort, but ideally one with a lot more user-friendly UI for simpler use-cases. The Symettrix and BSS HiQnet software packages (which someone I know uses as his preferred DSP, not necessarily a recommendation to me, just what he uses) are both designed to be used with any and all of their hardware products, in any multi-room / multi-site configuration, running huge systems.

 

All we use of the system is input routing to outputs (including muted), with some EQ, and a fire-alarm contact closure to mute the system. (We've a secondary tannoy system throughout the building for announcements). The Vity (via RS232/RS485) recalls presets and has volume up/down controls for each of the radio mics and for the lectern PC and mic.

 

Are there any DSP's (or other devices not called DSPs that meet the above needs) with simpler software for simple use-cases with only one hardware device?

 

We barely even need what would traditionally be called a DSP, for our basic use - our main sound mixer is Behringer X32, so I've even considered using an X32-Core/X32-Rack with recallable scenes programmable by the PC/iPad software; only problem is this won't take RS232 commands from the Vity!

 

Any thoughts?

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dbuckley]

What is it that feel the need to do with this system that it doesn't do now? There are a number of programmable DSP boxes (and indeed some not-so-programmable DSP boxes) that can do this kind of thing, but they are mostly somewhat similar in how they work, and how they are configured. They have a bucketload of functional blocks, and what you get is a self-assembly kit, to put it together in whatever way you fancy.

 

If you really don't like the thing then one could leave it entirely in place for everything other than theater productions, and install a multipole switch (or relays, or many simple switches) to undo the outputs from the DSP, and present them on sockets for you to plug the X32 into.

 

Here in community-theratre-ville one can't afford "proper" DSP boxes (yes, if Santa wants to drop a Soundweb on us we'll say thanks and give him a mention in the programme!) so I use an eBay purchased Gentner box, a PSR1212, a box intended for use in audio converencing, but if one turns off all the converencing stuff then one has a perfectly good 12x12 matrix mixer with eight insert routes with decent EQ, limiting etc, decent enough EQ to include being crossovers.

[stu00c]

Hi Peter,

 

I'm wearing my Symetrix tech support hat now (I work for their UK distributor).

 

If you aren't used to playing with 'open architecture' DSPs like the Symnet 8x8, it can be daunting. The important thing before embarking on any setup or changes with these products is to know what you are trying to achieve - without that you can tie yourself in knots.

 

The creation and editing of what we in Symetrix land refer to as site files is done off-line so you can meddle to your hearts content without upsetting the live system. When you send the file to the hardware, however it will do whatever the new file tells it to (always keep copies of previous files in case you need to revert).

 

Once the site file is set up as you want, day to day changing of settings and preset recall will usually not be via SymNet Designer but rather other interfaces such as Symetrix's SymVue software, hardware remotes or 3rd party controllers such as your Vity.

 

If you are looking to increase the size of your DSP, the Symetrix Radius 12x8 would be a sensible route. Yes, it is open architecture like the SymNet 8x8 but once it has been set up, you can have your own custom, simplified interface running in SymVue. The other benefit is that you would need to do very little, if anything to your Vity programming to have the same functionality as you have presently since the control protocols used by the Radius are pretty much unchanged from those used by the SymNet 8x8.

 

The Radius is Dante enabled so as well as the analogue inputs and outputs you have an additional 64 inputs and 64 outputs on the Dante network that can be utilized. This can allow nice, simple integration with suitable mixing consoles (from Yamaha, Behringer, Allen & Heath etc), power amps and even microphones that are Dante enabled.

 

Feel free to contact me if you have any specific questions relating to your current or future Symetrix setup and I will do what I can to help.

 

Regards,

Stuart

[howartp]

What is it that feel the need to do with this system that it doesn't do now? There are a number of programmable DSP boxes (and indeed some not-so-programmable DSP boxes) that can do this kind of thing, but they are mostly somewhat similar in how they work, and how they are configured. They have a bucketload of functional blocks, and what you get is a self-assembly kit, to put it together in whatever way you fancy.

 

If you really don't like the thing then one could leave it entirely in place for everything other than theater productions, and install a multipole switch (or relays, or many simple switches) to undo the outputs from the DSP, and present them on sockets for you to plug the X32 into.

 

Here in community-theratre-ville one can't afford "proper" DSP boxes (yes, if Santa wants to drop a Soundweb on us we'll say thanks and give him a mention in the programme!) so I use an eBay purchased Gentner box, a PSR1212, a box intended for use in audio converencing, but if one turns off all the converencing stuff then one has a perfectly good 12x12 matrix mixer with eight insert routes with decent EQ, limiting etc, decent enough EQ to include being crossovers.

Sorry for the delay David, I missed your reply coming in.

 

My problem with the device is getting it the programming working how we want it initially, including the fire-alarm mute actually doing what it says on the tin. If we can do that in the first instance then I won't necessarily be looking for a bigger device - however if I'm changing it to something more friendly to me and future modifications, then I'd like a 12*8.

 

If I pretend for a minute that I haven't read Stu's response then I'm very interested in looking at the PSR1212 - it sounds like a very good unit. I did google matrix audio after posting, but I only found such as the Kramer VS-88A which doesn't do volume changes.

 

However, Stu's response is promising - I will be getting in touch directly with him / CUK to see if I can obtain (possibly at cost) technical support and guidance.

 

Hi Peter,

 

I'm wearing my Symetrix tech support hat now (I work for their UK distributor).

 

If you aren't used to playing with 'open architecture' DSPs like the Symnet 8x8, it can be daunting. The important thing before embarking on any setup or changes with these products is to know what you are trying to achieve - without that you can tie yourself in knots.

 

The creation and editing of what we in Symetrix land refer to as site files is done off-line so you can meddle to your hearts content without upsetting the live system. When you send the file to the hardware, however it will do whatever the new file tells it to (always keep copies of previous files in case you need to revert).

 

Once the site file is set up as you want, day to day changing of settings and preset recall will usually not be via SymNet Designer but rather other interfaces such as Symetrix's SymVue software, hardware remotes or 3rd party controllers such as your Vity.

 

If you are looking to increase the size of your DSP, the Symetrix Radius 12x8 would be a sensible route. Yes, it is open architecture like the SymNet 8x8 but once it has been set up, you can have your own custom, simplified interface running in SymVue. The other benefit is that you would need to do very little, if anything to your Vity programming to have the same functionality as you have presently since the control protocols used by the Radius are pretty much unchanged from those used by the SymNet 8x8.

 

The Radius is Dante enabled so as well as the analogue inputs and outputs you have an additional 64 inputs and 64 outputs on the Dante network that can be utilized. This can allow nice, simple integration with suitable mixing consoles (from Yamaha, Behringer, Allen & Heath etc), power amps and even microphones that are Dante enabled.

 

Feel free to contact me if you have any specific questions relating to your current or future Symetrix setup and I will do what I can to help.

 

Regards,

Stuart

 

Stuart, have you a number (pm if you'd like) I can ring you on tomorrow?

 

Peter

 

 

 

[howartp]

Actually, having Googled the PRS1212 further, read the manual and downloaded the software, I'm really liking it.

 

If I don't get anywhere with Stu, I'll certainly be looking at getting one - there's a few on eBay at the moment.

 

Peter

 

 

 

[dbuckley]

Well, I certainly wouldn't be downgrading from a Symetrix to a PSR1212!

 

As noted, these boxes are all similar, and as you've got a Symetrix, a well regarded unit, I'd work through support getting to the point where you can confidently understand and configure it. It's worth the trouble. It's also a saleable skill :)

 

Also noteworthy in Stuart's response is that the Symetrix is Dante capable, as (with the addiition of a card) is your X32. Although the card is quite expensive, once you've got it, you';ve got Dante netowrking on the X32. The Dante virtual software card for your PC or Mac is just $30, which makes a very easy way to get audio in and out of the X32, especially if the X32 is in the auditorium, the playback machine is by the lighting op in the booth, and the Symetrix is hidden in a rack somewhere.

[stu00c]

PM Sent!

[howartp]

Well, I certainly wouldn't be downgrading from a Symetrix to a PSR1212!

 

As noted, these boxes are all similar, and as you've got a Symetrix, a well regarded unit, I'd work through support getting to the point where you can confidently understand and configure it. It's worth the trouble. It's also a saleable skill :)

 

Also noteworthy in Stuart's response is that the Symetrix is Dante capable, as (with the addiition of a card) is your X32. Although the card is quite expensive, once you've got it, you';ve got Dante netowrking on the X32. The Dante virtual software card for your PC or Mac is just $30, which makes a very easy way to get audio in and out of the X32, especially if the X32 is in the auditorium, the playback machine is by the lighting op in the booth, and the Symetrix is hidden in a rack somewhere.

 

Getting hold of support for these big pieces of equipment (the ones beyond my existing skill level) is where I struggle; the company that put them all in doesn't want to talk to me. I've no problem learning the skills and understanding what's going on, if I could get someone there in to watch-and-learn as they did it. I'll give Stu a ring - got waylaid with a dead Kramer this morning that routes all our VGA in/outs which is a pain.

 

I'm not familiar with Dante; I'd assumed it was DAW/studio related stuff when I read it on 'the' X32 discussion thread (not on BR). Our PC and X32 are both adjacent, and the rack with the Symmetrix is 3 feet away, albeit through a fire-proof wall - we have a 28-way XLR facility panel on one side of the wall, which is wired directly into various units in the rack on the other side of the wall.

 

Regarding saleable skills, that may be the case if I move into theatre/audio full time - I'm actually employed as the IT manager here, though theatre tech is my hobby/social life outside of work. :)

 

Peter

 

 

 

[Martin]

If I were you, I would persevere in learning the Symetrix. However if all you want is a simple routing box then have a look at Extrons MAV Plus audio matrix routers. These can be controlled via Ethernet or rs232 and have presets you can recall for simple audio routing. They also have level control but no EQ.