Advice on PC Control systems

[chgriffiths]

Hi there,

 

I have just taken over as Technical Theatre Manager at a school in the south. We have a small/medium studio style theatre with a 48 channel grid across 5 lighting bars and the auditorium holds 330 people. The majority of the time, the lights (mainly generic with about 9 LED Pars) are in a fixed set up and we have to bring up pre-designed states for classes/assessments and we hold concerts/small theatre productions who usually require a similar service, rather than custom designed lighting states.

 

We currently have Chamsys MagicQ PC and are looking into buying a wing to accompany it, however, in my first few weeks here, I have really struggled to get on with MagicQ and find it quite complicated. I have only ever been trained/used EOS consoles (ION/Congo) and therefore think in the way they work and I find MAgicQ quite illogical, however I think this is more down to my mindset than the quality of the software.

 

Can anyone recommend any other PC consoles that you think may suite my requirements best.

 

We do also hold about 2 large productions a year where we hire in moving heads and need to do complicated programming rather than calling up pre-determined states.

 

It well maybe that MagicQ is the best and I just need to get my head round it and get into that mindset, but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

(we would eventually want to buy a wing for whatever software we use, but this wouldn't be possible for at least a year due to budget, so need software that is easily worked with/without a wing)

 

Cheers

[vinntec]

Since you are in Southampton why don't you contact Chamsys and see about attending one of their free 2 day training sessions? Just send an email to tony@chamsys.co.uk and see when the next session is. You will be amazed how simple it is to use once you understand the basics.

[jameschamsys]

You are more than welcome to come and visit us here in Southampton if you'd like to have a run through of MagicQ and discuss any queries, you would also be able to try out the wing here.

As Vinntec also mentioned, we also run regular free training courses, our next Southampton course is on the 26/27th August.

 

 

[Young Johnstone]

Try Martin M-PC, you'll find the cammandlines more comfortable I'd imagine!

Its free to download from the website so you can have a play. There's online tutorials as well.

I'd say its easier than Chamsys for modifying attributes when using a touch screen.

If you want a wing, there's the M2PC which I own. Its a great system.

 

M-PC will give you 1 universe for free on artnet or you can buy an Enttec USB to DMX or a Martin Duo for output.

 

Its certainly worth a look.

[Olit]

Hello,

 

If you have experience in using the ETC EOS Family why not look into the recently released NOMAD, this is a computer based system that uses the same software that runs on the EOS Ti, Gio, Ion etc so really does give you a full experience rather than a cut down PC version. You buy a dongle based on the number of channels you require for your setup it sounds like a 256 would be ideal. ETC also offer a USB to DMX called a Gadget. I'm sure if you shop around on price you could get a 256 dongle and ETC Gadget for around £500 but don't hold me to that.

 

Hope this helps

Oli

[Judge]

Any software powerful enough to run complex shows with moving lights is complicated. It has to be. MagicQ is no more so than anything else. Its quirky here and there but generally easy and logical. Its certainly different from Congo - which has everything backwards as far as I am concerned. Still, it does theatre stuff well. I would not want to use movers on one though.

So yeah, first thing to do is to take one of their courses and you'll find that a lot of things fall into place and there will be many "aha" moments. It is of course possible to figure everything out by reading the manual and posting on forums, and days later you may get it sussed. Its quite another to be able to just say "Hey Chris, how do I do this..."

M-PC seems like a nice enough system though a bit more expensive to buy into. Its no easier though.

ETC Nomad - great offline programmer, but it does not replace a real desk or control wing. I would never consider running a show without physical controls.

[emountford15]

ETC Nomad - great offline programmer, but it does not replace a real desk or control wing. I would never consider running a show without physical controls.

 

You can use XKeys to have as your command line keypad, And ETC universal control wings to use as Submasters. Having seen ETC at ABTT show this year, You can also use the "Nomad" dongle on ETC's Cobalt version. Allowing you to have EOS for your theatrical cue stacking shows ,and cobalt for your busking shows!

 

It might also be worth looking at the nomad puck. Possibly a little bit out of your price range though. Its essentially a locked windows 7 mini computer that you can boot up EOS or Cobalt!

[Chris.Morris]

I clearly am going to recommend LimeLIGHT. Schools with a mix of LED pars and generic have used the software successfully before. Generally we sell it on ease of use, so it meets that need, though if you are wanting to use it with a wing in the future then currently your only choice is a third party MIDI wing.

 

As always, download the software (it's mostly free), evaluate and buy the hardware for the one you like best.

 

Note also that many of the well known hardware desks now make there software available and offer PC + wing options.

[swampman]

I admit I have not looked around the forum for similar thread - this one nearly fits my problem.  

I need to prepare a video recordable liveshow (songs need specific looks etc) on a low budget where PC + minimal outboard (DMX+ wing) running some dimmers, LEDs (RGB/RGBA) and some "wobbly mirrors" etc; - I usually programme hotel desks etc. with a set of workable states (statics, show 1,2... Disco night: slow, fast etc...) and hidden backups in case fiddly fingers mess up the former... Where hotels have used PC systems - these have been risky disaster areas: inadequate interfaces, virus, crashes mid show etc and never simple to explain to new staff.

 

This event is different and my stock desks (theatre/live memory) are not ideal SO its PC preparation time and... just as OP mentions Chamsys, Hog177... seem to be a VERY steep learning curve 4hrs+ to get the first possible DMX patch and 1 channel "output" (vs patching a paper plan is done in 20m stock desks: old Avo's, Celcos, CCT) Me slow - possibly; missing the language to tell the desk (Basic, Fortran, Python, Java, Pascal... come to mind !) or is it the terminology and the different virtual button pushes... Maybe OP and myself are missing the directness or simplicity that Avolites, Lightfactory, MAlighting, ETC,... others might offer and we have not yet found?

Comments?

[Geetrt]

What can I say...

 

One of my Chamsys pc-systems is a cheap atom-based tablet with a miniwing and 2 programmable keyboards. I build it in 2010. It cost me around 1300 GBP to build, including a 19" mixer case. It's been running all the time. Heck, even when the power fails it keeps on running for 3,5 hours of the battery in the tablet.

 

The last year or so it is permanently rented out to a local pub who have a lot of live bands, and like to change their lighting every two weeks or so. It hasn't missed a beat. Every bar-person knows basics on how to operate it. They usually need 30 minutes to understand. I had 10-11 year old children program MagicQ within 15 minutes.

 

A few times a year the band insists on bringing their own desks, because they want to use some extra lighting. From MagicQ I print the paperwork, email it to the band, and be done with it.

 

I've been in the entertainment-business for over 20 years now, and have seen a lot of other lighting systems, PC based or not. As already pointed out there is no definitive answer to your problem, but in my book, MagicQ comes d@mn close.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[swampman]

Geetrt: Well done with the bar rental.  I would like to extend the input similarly to capture fader settings from a wide fader desk - inmediacy and direct selection is important (see below about visualizer screen plans), but that is a future target.  

 

I agree, like a new/rented car: you should be able to get in, key in slot - turn on, adjust seat, mirrors and start up with appropriate lights for signals etc and gears within 2 minutes otherwise somewhere the manufacturer is complicating things - I have examples but not for here.  

 

The problem "getting my head around" starting Chamsys was what it does with equipment lists in Patch: e.g. finding a suitable RBGA led type for the type of control needed (list did not coincide with maker's model, Mode and description of units); setting its DMX - only to find huge gaps in addresses due to type changes; which to correct you must move Heads' DMX start points individually to a non gap/used area (it does warn of overlaps - good! - but why not indicate the addresses used e.g. 1.23-27;2.1-4;... , if you accept the option for a new address - you then have to hunt for where it has been put by the program to change it.) Why not a Spreadsheet type block cut/copy/paste approach?  

 

Now the heads I wanted are at correct address and number... then check Visualizer and damn (!) the XYZ locations are all muddled up - again, and in another list a head appears with no attributes (bugs?)... (I hope Chamsys will bring in the possibility of selecting heads on a screen like other manufacturer boast and I assume that eventually this screen shows some colour/movement¿?)  Being new to the software you then spend time trying to find out WHO is the problem YOU or a Program excentricity or bug... and then on demo mode it times out ! (Fortunately it DOES restart where you left off - good again!)  

 

The Hog version I have tried lacks many modern fixtures so I will give it another chance with a different version if suitable compatible wings can be found - but I am looking for small extensions no more than a portable in size. Chamsys, Hog, Avolites and Jands all seem to have a "submaster" 3/4 button flash/start/stop/Select+Fader approach that seems most suitable for todays needs - others miss out possibilities with only 1 or 2 buttons.  

 

One can dream of grandma´s and valuable gemstones and felines but the Euro accountant will say what is possible.

 

Edit: paragraphing

[kaareolai]

Can anyone recommend any other PC consoles that you think may suite my requirements best.

We do also hold about 2 large productions a year where we hire in moving heads and need to do complicated programming rather than calling up pre-determined states.

 

Many good tips in other answers here. And with some training you will find MagicQ easier to grasp. I have had a PCwing version for almost 10 years now, working fine....

 

Though, I personally find LightFactory very intuitive to use, though very advanced in possibities, both for seldom/beginner or more frequent use. I have also used such "PC desk with wings" for a decade now.

 

 

Regards Kåre Olai

(Disclaimer: I have done none-paid demoing of LightFactory at different exhibitions)

[Wol]

I agree, like a new/rented car: you should be able to get in, key in slot - turn on, adjust seat, mirrors and start up with appropriate lights for signals etc and gears within 2 minutes otherwise somewhere the manufacturer is complicating things - I have examples but not for here.

 

The way you're describing it, the analogy of comparing different systems to one another would be like comparing a bike to a car to a segway. They all transport people from A to B, in the same way all lighting consoles control lights, but I don't expect someone who can ride a bike to be able to get into a car and drive it straight off, and I don't expect someone who drives a car but has never learnt to ride a bike to be able to ride a bike. However within a manufacturer / transport method, they'll have the same practices between them. So between different types of car, its generally the same gist (steering wheel, 3 pedals and a gear stick). Between different types of lighting console from the same manufacturer, it's the same gist. You also have a few similarities between methods, e.g. cars bikes and segways have wheels on them, and most lighting consoles have faders and flash buttons...

 

The problem "getting my head around" starting Chamsys was what it does with equipment lists in Patch: e.g. finding a suitable RBGA led type for the type of control needed (list did not coincide with maker's model, Mode and description of units); setting its DMX - only to find huge gaps in addresses due to type changes; which to correct you must move Heads' DMX start points individually to a non gap/used area (it does warn of overlaps - good! - but why not indicate the addresses used e.g. 1.23-27;2.1-4;... , if you accept the option for a new address - you then have to hunt for where it has been put by the program to change it.) Why not a Spreadsheet type block cut/copy/paste approach?

 

You can move several fixtures at once by highlighting all of them and typing a new DMX address. You shouldn't need to do each fixture individually. They then start from the entered address and count up. If I had three fixtures which autopatched to 1-1, 1-20 and 1-39, if I highlight the three DMX fields and type "2-200/50", then they'd be patched at 2-200, 2-250 and 2-300 respectively. If you're using the view heads window rather than view chans, then the head numbers still stay the same if you move the DMX address, so you should be having to "hunt" for the fixture. Can you give us a bit more of an example of what you're doing / expecting.

 

The patch view is something we're looking at improving currently so will take your comments into consideration.

 

(I hope Chamsys will bring in the possibility of selecting heads on a screen like other manufacturer boast

What do you mean here by selecting heads on a screen? We have the Group > View Heads mode where you can select individual heads, Group > View Groups mode where you can select the groups of heads, Outputs > View Plan allows you to make a 2D plan of your rig that you not only can pixelmap, but use to select heads as well by area/click dragging(http://I.imgur.com/t2ZVfmE.png)

[MarfaLights]

I forgot about that View Plan 2D map of the fixtures. I need to create one of those for our theater.