Bar / Nightclub Sound System business Plan

[jaydonny]

Hi newbie hear

 

I'm putting togeather a buissness plan with a potentional opening / upgradeing an existing venue and would like to ask for your guidance on the required dbs / watts to enable me to estimate costs in more details  for secondhand / recondition speaker & Amps as and when they come on the market, with the intention of confirming it with a local installer  before purchase. I have uploaded a rough plan layout with the followiing details

 

Approx max no: of people around the venue is 250-300

Currently using tannoy (15in speakers I think)  

 

zone 1 6x13 M from stage area to Dj  (split into upper & lower dance floor) upper is approx 60 cm higher above the lower floor.

zone 2 9x15 M  from Dj to far seating + standing room only between bar and seating.

 

(zone 3 not required)  

 

Currently the sound system is set up to cover both areas all the time. I would like to have a zone one & zone two (x2 Amps)

 

The replacement system would be still used for a mixture of

 

70 % Dj music - (80 % digital / laptop)  20% CDJ decks

30 % Live pa singers-(stage area only)  / Karaoke / Laptop VJ

[Samwise]

Hi Jaydonny,

 

 

 

 

I cannot see the plan you've uploaded?

 

 

 

 

Also I'm not really an audio expert, but I see nobody else has tried to answer your question

also I've been to a lot of clubs world wide and I work regularly in these environments.

 

Some are brilliantly conceived, amazing venues sound wise, some are akin to listening to

your favourite DJ's through a loud hailer in an oil drum.

 

Here's my own personal brief for things that make a good club sound system:

 

 

1 - A full range sound with plenty of headroom in the lower frequencies. This means a

generous sub to top ratio. The good news is, sub is cheap! You can even build very very

effective boxes yourself, if you so wish. My favourite ratio is two or more 18" sub cabs to

one 12" (or less mid/high. box. This, ideally would all be fed from separate amp channels

(sub-top) or (sub-mid-top) and driven through a DSP enabling you to limit and protect your

system.

 

2 - Well thought out speaker placement and zoning. I see you already have some ideas

about zoning however the better installs I've heard have always had a great deal of thought

about WHO wants to hear the sound most. The people on the dance floor will probably be

fine with their music being delivered at 104dB, however the people who have been dragged

there by a mate or their girlfriend probably want an area where they can lean up against a

wall and look cool, chatting to their mates at a more reasonable <97dB. The same for people

who are trying to order a drink at the bar. Or for that matter; the bar staff who are subject to noise

at work regulations. A well thought out install would take current regulations such as these into

consideration.

Even the DJ is unlikely to want to bear the brunt of your sound system, keeping them

in a relatively quite region with near field monitors for DJ's and Lighting operators etc is a

good shout.

 

 

3 - Room treatment. Second to speaker placement, but still important in my opinion is

room treatment, this can be actual room treatment systems from -http://gikacoustics.co.uk/-

for example, but also thought as to what furnishings you will use in the room, a tiled or

wooden dance floor etc. or even some imaginative things I've seen such as: Acoustic room

dividers with a wine rack on the front to add separation between the bar and dance floor

sound. Bass traps painted white one wall of a club with projectors firing the VJ's content onto

them (looked great!)

 

Here's my own personal totally subjective brief for things that make a not so good club

system without being too obviously just the reverse of the above… :-S

 

 

 

1 - A system composed of many small, cheap boxes with one or no subs… I have no problem

per se with cheap boxes, but how they're driven and without the reinforcement they require at

the low end in a club environment is one of my least favourite things in an install.

Small boxes by themselves are great at low volumes, but add a sub if you want to

club -yeah?

 

 

 

2 - Bad layout of course! but added to this, poorly conceived/understood distribution and delay

of systems is really damaging to the club environment. Also people with all the gear and no

idea, I've seen decent speakers pointing parallel to concrete walls, or even just a

(decent W3) trapezoid cab on its side pointing effectively at the roof in one venue.

 

3 - A bad DJ/Manager, someone who constantly runs the whole system into the red so virtually

all the dynamic range is gone from your system is sometimes inevitable, do your best to

educate/sack these people.

 

4 - Lack of flexibility is a bit of a bummer, what if the club owner wants to throw another kind

of event, such as live music/dance event/show. A club I once worked in tried to put on some

live music, most hilarious afternoon of feedback ever.

 

Some food for thought perhaps, I'm sure I'll get corrected all over the place now, there are people on here that know a great deal more!

 

 

 

 

Regards, Sam.

[jaydonny]

Hi Sam

 

thanks a lot for your reply and handy tips

 

erm I'm having a problem figuring out how to upload the plan on hear (embarrassingly) hehe so hopefully it won't be too long until I figer it out

 

cheers jay.

 

 

Hi Jaydonny,

 

 

 

 

I cannot see the plan you've uploaded?

 

 

 

 

Also I'm not really an audio expert, but I see nobody else has tried to answer your question

also I've been to a lot of clubs world wide and I work regularly in these environments.

 

Some are brilliantly conceived, amazing venues sound wise, some are akin to listening to

your favourite DJ's through a loud hailer in an oil drum.

 

Here's my own personal brief for things that make a good club sound system:

 

 

1 - A full range sound with plenty of headroom in the lower frequencies. This means a

generous sub to top ratio. The good news is, sub is cheap! You can even build very very

effective boxes yourself, if you so wish. My favourite ratio is two or more 18" sub cabs to

one 12" (or less mid/high. box. This, ideally would all be fed from separate amp channels

(sub-top) or (sub-mid-top) and driven through a DSP enabling you to limit and protect your

system.

 

2 - Well thought out speaker placement and zoning. I see you already have some ideas

about zoning however the better installs I've heard have always had a great deal of thought

about WHO wants to hear the sound most. The people on the dance floor will probably be

fine with their music being delivered at 104dB, however the people who have been dragged

there by a mate or their girlfriend probably want an area where they can lean up against a

wall and look cool, chatting to their mates at a more reasonable <97dB. The same for people

who are trying to order a drink at the bar. Or for that matter; the bar staff who are subject to noise

at work regulations. A well thought out install would take current regulations such as these into

consideration.

Even the DJ is unlikely to want to bear the brunt of your sound system, keeping them

in a relatively quite region with near field monitors for DJ's and Lighting operators etc is a

good shout.

 

 

3 - Room treatment. Second to speaker placement, but still important in my opinion is

room treatment, this can be actual room treatment systems from -http://gikacoustics.co.uk/-

for example, but also thought as to what furnishings you will use in the room, a tiled or

wooden dance floor etc. or even some imaginative things I've seen such as: Acoustic room

dividers with a wine rack on the front to add separation between the bar and dance floor

sound. Bass traps painted white one wall of a club with projectors firing the VJ's content onto

them (looked great!)

 

Here's my own personal totally subjective brief for things that make a not so good club

system without being too obviously just the reverse of the above… :-S

 

 

 

1 - A system composed of many small, cheap boxes with one or no subs… I have no problem

per se with cheap boxes, but how they're driven and without the reinforcement they require at

the low end in a club environment is one of my least favourite things in an install.

Small boxes by themselves are great at low volumes, but add a sub if you want to

club -yeah?

 

 

 

2 - Bad layout of course! but added to this, poorly conceived/understood distribution and delay

of systems is really damaging to the club environment. Also people with all the gear and no

idea, I've seen decent speakers pointing parallel to concrete walls, or even just a

(decent W3) trapezoid cab on its side pointing effectively at the roof in one venue.

 

3 - A bad DJ/Manager, someone who constantly runs the whole system into the red so virtually

all the dynamic range is gone from your system is sometimes inevitable, do your best to

educate/sack these people.

 

4 - Lack of flexibility is a bit of a bummer, what if the club owner wants to throw another kind

of event, such as live music/dance event/show. A club I once worked in tried to put on some

live music, most hilarious afternoon of feedback ever.

 

Some food for thought perhaps, I'm sure I'll get corrected all over the place now, there are people on here that know a great deal more!

 

 

 

 

Regards, Sam.

 

 

 

[peza2010]

I feel the reason your not getting the answers is because some people make a living charging for answers to the questions your asking.

 

 

also, without a plan (which you will need to host elsewhere and link to by the way) its a "how long is a piece of string" type question.

[jaydonny]

Plan My link

[pisquee]

Choose 3 good sound install companies, and invite them to come and look at your space, and give you quotes/plans for the job. Maybe even invite them to bring speakers in to demo in the space.

 

A local company has obvious advantages in terms of future support issues once the job is done. If you have a big player near you, then this could be even better ... (Wigwam and VME are both about 50 miles away from you - picked off the top of my head, probably some more around you too)

[jaydonny]

Yes will do pisquee cheers.

 

what certificate of qualification should I make sure the company have so I know they are complient to a certain leval standard ?

 

Do the manufactures of speakers have their own quality leval spesification so if used / ex-rental speakers wear to be used the sound enginear can give it a score of how much or if any change has happend ?

 

 

Choose 3 good sound install companies, and invite them to come and look at your space, and give you quotes/plans for the job. Maybe even invite them to bring speakers in to demo in the space.

 

A local company has obvious advantages in terms of future support issues once the job is done. If you have a big player near you, then this could be even better ... (Wigwam and VME are both about 50 miles away from you - picked off the top of my head, probably some more around you too)

[top-cat]

I've got a great business plan.

 

I'm going to write a business plan for the potential opening / upgrading of something which I know absolutely nothing about, then I will go on the internet and I will ask random people on the internet which irrelevant details I should look for the most. Then I should hire another company to do the actual work, but first check that they have certificates which I know neither the meaning nor value of. And then I will judge the final product on a magic quality scale that only the people of the trade can use.

 

I really think I'm onto something... any investors?

[paulears]

This is a very odd topic. It mentions a business plan in the title, which is not at all what it's about and now we're talking qualifications for businesses? The world qualifies individuals in their education, but business entities don't get qualified? They may have registration - a bit like gas with the old CORGI system, but qualifications are attached to individuals. Sound designers and acoustics businesses will have the right people and cost lots of money. As this is all business to business and expensive you'd usually source people who have good reputations and ask them to quote for the job or you find a consultant who is not linked to a sale, and get them to draw up the spec for giving out to a company to quote. Clearly all this is way outside your experience to manage, and perhaps the venue' ability to understand. When I deal with a client on a budget way too low to do it properly, the. You need a plan B. Something that will be usable, but not the ideal, best solution. So when they get a quote in for a hundred grand when they think five grand is expensive you have a fall back. If this venue was one of the big chains, then it would not be handled in house. If their staff are knowledgeable then they may be able to draw up the plan and produce the shopping list, but they may not have access to the modern sound design software, and cheaper brands may not even have the data these programmes require. Somebody just needs to decide if it's too big and expensive to risk doing it inhouse. Then if you have the budget, get the big boys in and get a guarantee on acoustic performance from them. I'd like to think I know a fair bit, but I can't do this kind of stuff - your plan is full of problems, but at the least it should be to scale and include elevations, and constructional data. It's fine for a quick scenario setting but no good for real advice.

[S&L]

just following on from what Paul said, as a consultant engineer in another field, I'm finding it depressing that owner operators are side stepping any design process and any experienced designers to make it up as they go along. I'm sat here this morning with absolutely nothing in my in tray, not because there is a shortage of work out there (it could be much healthier I admit) but because decision makers in various businesses are keen to side step a design process that they don't fully understand and instead make it up as they go along (like the patient turning up at the doctor with a spurious internet article declaring his self diagnosis).

A good consultant will cost a reasonable amount of money to engage but knows his field and will help guide the client through budgets and decision making processes. He will know which contractors and supply companies are likely to offer best prices for the solution the client has asked for. In the end he will at least make sure the client gets value for his money and more often than not save the client money in the long run. I always keep an eye on my fee and the job costs - more than 9 times in 10 I know that the fee the client pays me is less than the sum I have saved him that he may otherwise have spent.

If you are spending many thousands of pounds and not sure what it is you are spending on, a professional who understands your problem, the possible solutions and the market place is the best investment you can make.

[TonyMitchell]

@OP - I'm guessing you're not at this stage of your business plan yet, but when you outline the financials, you will see from the Depreciation line, that aside from possible redeployment of existing assets, the difference to your P&L forecast in a given year in using secondhand/reconditioned equipment vs new with the right trade discounts, is so negligible that it's not worthwhile.

 

Run the numbers for leasing options too. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[jaydonny]

Yes Paul / S&L the entertainment instalation side of things is clearly outside my experience and like you said worth getting a consultant not linked to sales. Obviously investing your my own cash into a venue taking into account new fixtures and fitttings,short to med tenancy and an unpridicatable lgbt crowd you have to balance the bar side and entertainment side together. I could go for a top notch used system for the same price as a brand new no frills label system so if the venture goes tits up it could be sold on... So yes all these things to think about for a system defo get a pro in now..... but I still need to get to know what a system would approximetly cost new on a no frills or avarage "labled" system enough for an aimed crowd of no more then 250-300. Thanks to the ones who gave a positive reply and Good Luck with your forum....

[djmatthill]

Hi Mate give Craig a call at CVA they specialise in rentals for the late night club trade. They provide rentals with an option to purchase entire systems at end of term. Luminar used CVA at many of their large club sites.

 

If you are looking for a sales / install quote from a Professional company give mike or Wes a call from Over Audio , very good guys and great company who specialise in bar and club installs.

 

 

I have no link to either company but have had experience with them both and would highly recommend them.

 

 

Matt

 

Hi Mate give Craig a call at CVA they specialise in rentals for the late night club trade. They provide rentals with an option to purchase entire systems at end of term. Luminar used CVA at many of their large club sites.

 

If you are looking for a sales / install quote from a Professional company give mike or Wes a call from Over Audio , very good guys and great company who specialise in bar and club installs.

 

 

I have no link to either company but have had experience with them both and would highly recommend them.

 

 

Matt

[djmatthill]

To Purchase a branded system suitable for your needs I should imagine to budget a minimum of £12000 would be a place to start.

 

This would get you 3 pairs of decent mid/tops , 4 subs and DSP processing and 4 Amps to power the above.

 

You may also be able to get 4 to 6 smaller cabs to use as infill zones around the other parts of the club.

 

I suppose top of my head I'm thinking

 

x6 EV Sx 300's or similar

 

x2 Double 18" subs PD loaded or similar

 

X4 QSC RMX 2450s or Crown XLS equiv.

 

X1 BSS soundweb 9088

 

X6 RCF monitor 5s / Control 5s

 

X1 Cloud CX 6 , multi Channel Amp..

 

If you can get a sparky to run the cables and install the cabs for a good price ,get a decent DSP programmer onsite for £400 day rate and get them to programme and work their magic?

 

Give me a shout if you need ant help with this.

 

 

Matt

 

LSMTECH Sound and Light

[mojo filters]

{snip}

I could go for a top notch used system for the same price as a brand new no frills label system so if the venture goes tits up it could be sold on... So yes all these things to think about for a system defo get a pro in now..... but I still need to get to know what a system would approximetly cost new on a no frills or avarage "labled" system enough for an aimed crowd of no more then 250-300.

To borrow an often used phrase from another forum - the wrong system at the right price is still the wrong system.