Advice for Music Festival Setup

[The Paranormal Unicorn]

Hello all,

 

My name is Stefan and I have an upcoming show where we've been asked to do an LED installation, projection mapping and lighting design. I have experience with LED installations and projection mapping, though we will be trying out some new tools like MadLight (which looks awesome by the way). Now, I've never touched a light console in my life, so some of my questions may seem very rudimentary. I'm used to coding everything myself in Max, so bear with me.

 

I'm asking for general advice on what kind of setup would be feasible for this event. Let me describe what we are planning and my amateur opinion on what I thought might work.

 

Our features:

An LED installation center stage (5 Universes)

6 deco objects left and right of the installation, used for projection mapping

Pixel curtain as the backdrop (~5000 pixels)

80+ lighting fixtures (moving heads / sharpies / spots / lasers… )

 

I was thinking of using a computer with MagicQ and a PC Wing for controlling the fixtures, MadMapper to control the projection mapping and LED installation, and a dedicated media server for the LED curtain. Are there other configurations that would work more smoothly? Because this is a festival, there will be other VJs present as well. How do you best suggest integrating live visuals in such a system (we will most likely receive a DVI input stream)? If we are going to be receiving DVI input, is it better to use a DVI to DMX converter for the LED curtain or should I stick with a server?

 

I would like to have the whole system ArtNet based but I've found it very difficult to find any information regarding ArtNet nodes. Does anybody know a good source for comparison (the only side-by-side comparison I could find was in some subscription-based French magazine) or could provide some advice? I was looking at the Enttec Storm24 but I can't seem to find any review of it except one mysterious forum post complaining that it didn't have opto isolation. Does anybody have experience with this piece of hardware and can confirm this? Is it truly a deal-breaker if it doesn't have opto isolation?

 

Now some of you will probably say, "it looks like you're biting off more than you can chew, you should get professional help". You're absolutely right, I am a bit over my head, but I will be working with an actual LD and laser specialist. I just want to inform myself as much as possible before those talks so I can provide feasible solutions and don't come across as a backwards yokel.

 

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

 

Greetings from Vienna,

stefan

[TonyMitchell]

Is this homework?

 

 

[Mazz]

Hmmm Looks like homework from where I'm sat. I can't imagine visiting LD's at a real festival being very happy about "80+ fixtures on a pc & wing" If it is genuine, the promoter needs a heads up regarding the possible supply of unsuitable kit and crew.

[patakskrause]

They are called vidiots for a reason ;)

[Gerry]

You are cynics.

Just because his place of study is The University of Applied Arts of Vienna, doesn't mean that it is probably a homework question. :unsure:

Cheers

Gerry

[son of lx dad]

Hiho Stefan.

 

I won't pretend to know about any of the projection mapping you mention but I do know a bit about lighting network design. The LED curtain you mention, does it have specific brand or if not did you have a specific pitch in mind? Your mention of a DVI to DMX converter is what will be throwing many people. Most media servers that are designed for pixel mapping e.g. Hippo or Catalyst output artnet direct because they understand what they are designed to do. Assuming you use a product such as colourweb then it may be possible to put lights and the curtain on the same network but I like a bit of separation, a bit of safety in the event of disaster. So I like to run duel networks linked only by a single piece of DMX that does the desk control into the artnet network of the Media Server. To 'take in' DVI you would need a pretty specialist media server with a graphics card input which would then be recognised as an input source and be overlaid onto a pixel map.

 

From a purely lighting point of view, in a festival situation (a busking situation) a PC with a small wing will be virtually useless. If you are working with a 'real' LD let him/her select the control surface, likely as not the visiting Lighting Designers with other acts will have a rider with their own console requirements. Most professional consoles can output ArtNet these days. ArtNet nodes can be found by searching for manufacturers such as Luminex or Swisson or Artistic License (the inventors of ArtNet) or ELC. My personal experience favours Luminex though they are generally the most expensive, if you have a branch of PRG in your area they have their own ArtNet nodes called Series400 which are very simple to use but have hardware limitations.

 

From a control network point of view, whilst theoretically lots of things can be put on the same network, in live festival gig situation I would want as much simplicity and therefore diversity of systems as possible. One knocked over pint or one trip over a cable and I'd much rather lose the lights OR the screen OR the projection rather than the whole show and the promoters gate takings.

[crazyshaun]

http://www.theparanormalunicorn.com/

 

is my answer to whom they are

[The Paranormal Unicorn]

Wow, a surprising amount of hostility. No, this is not homework. My university actually doesn't offer lighting courses. Perhaps I worded this incorrectly. I am not the Lighting Designer for this festival. We've had problems in the past at this festival that the operators didn't really know how to deal with a LED installation on stage and their was very little communication and compromise. So we're trying to create a unified concept for lighting, installation and projection mapping this year, so that everything is nicely synchronized (in color and in timing). I understand that this is a craft that takes many years to perfect, I'm not trying to take away anybody's job. I'm just trying to come as informed as possible to the future meetings. I'd rather have people on the internet call me an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about than the people who I actually have to work with.

 

Thank you for the feedback though 'son of lx dad'. I wasn't aware that a PC wing is considered useless for larger applications. I thought it would be a good solution because I could play around with it on my computer before I had access to an actual console. The festival is for electronic music, and the stage that we are playing only has DJs, so their are no visiting LDs with riders. The main reason why I'm interested in what kind of console to use is because I'm unaware of what possibilities exist for synchronizing visuals and light. Nearly all gigs I've played where there has been an light operator, I've had to improvise to whatever he was doing (here's an example of what I do:

). So a main part of what we're trying to achieve this year is synchronization of color. Our installations are controlled by generative visuals written in MaxJitter, so it can accept any form of input. What options exist for lighting consoles to control other devices? Or can they be controlled by outside devices?

 

At gigs where I've played on LED screens before as a VJ, I've always just sent out a DVI signal. Is it so uncommon to use an external signal that we would need "a pretty specialist media server"? Am I correct in my understanding that you are suggesting 3 different servers (1 for lights, 1 for projection, 1 for screen)?

 

Thank you,

stefan

[ImagineerTom]

Quite simply, you need to get an expert in.

 

Running that many control universes, that many fixtures, that much video content and then synchronizing it all together to create the "simple" idea of complimentary pallets and colour themes is a MASSIVE job that would normally be done by a team of people, each of whom has specialist skills and experience in their relative fields. Furthermore whatever you decide on creatively then has to be implemented and deciding how to rig and instal that much kit is going to require further specialist input consideration as moving equipment just 50cm closer together could result in a cost difference of thousands of euro's.

 

What you're effectively saying is "I want to compose a symphony, could you tell me how to play instruments?" and whilst theoretically complete strangers on an online forum could teach you the basic skills of how to play instruments you still wouldn't be any better equipped to compose a symphony. What you NEED to do is find a local lighting designer who understands the kind of lighting equipment you plan to use, find a video screen / media server expert who understands the kind of equipment you're going to use and work with them as a collaboration with each of you focusing on your key skills and trusting the others to implement the things they specialise in. If you want a green lighting wash you just need to say to the lighting expert "make this bit green" and let him work out the details of how to do it; you learning how artnet works won't help in any way creatively OR practically.

[TonyMitchell]

@Stefan, I'm sure there was no "hostility" intended in any of the replies. Fairly regularly on here, new members join up and post homework questions.

 

The reason I read your post and immediately thought "homework", was your statement that you have never touched an LX desk in your life, yet were speccing a festival with 80 fixtures, pixel mapping, etc, etc, and had pretty much decided on the control surface and protocols to be deployed. All without any indication of budget.

 

As already indicated, the LX desk is neither here nor there at this stage, it's rather like deciding what kick drum mic to use for the headliner, in advance of booking the lineup and receiving BE riders.

 

Apologies, if I offended you.

[paulears]

With magicQ - you can do your advance stuff on a PC Wing, and with the visualiser if you wish, and then rent a hardware desk if you wish - however, people ARE running complex shows on any of their kit. It's just that once you move to art net, and multiple universes, you've normally got the budget for something with built in UPS and the other features. There's no real reason why you can't use multiple wings running on a PC if you wish (lots of us do, with no issues) - but one bit of kit is a cleaner approach being 1 box. However - as you have other computer based items on your list - then I don't thin k it really matters at all.

[smalljoshua]

One thing that LD's like when I'm working Video on events is just to be able to pallet the video colours as they would a LED fixture. I expose, over Artnet, CMY colour, Intensity and Contrast which I in turn map to each segment/screen I'm working with. It gives the LDs control of the overall look of the stage and allows for blackouts to strobe or for colour changes without the LD having to cue me into it.

 

It's a basic solution but I've found the LDs don't want to have to think any further about the video (in my experience) than they have to and giving them the ability to have the screen brightness on a Handle on their desk and the colours (I only give them 50% so everything is coloured to some extent and they can just shift it around the spectrum) palleted with everything else for their workflow really helps create a synergy in a busked situation.

 

Josh

[The Paranormal Unicorn]

Okay, so it seems I'm getting ahead of myself. I suppose a more accurate analogy would be "I want to write a symphony, I've been in a band for awhile". This isn't my first gig, but I've never done anything of this scale. Until now, I've always controlled 1-3 ArtNet universes with my own software. Creating color palletes for this kind of system was very easy because the algorithms controlling the lights & visuals were all centralized on one computer. So forgive my naivety if I'm trivializing a complex task.

 

 

For this festival, synchronizing the LED installation and projection mapping isn't a problem, they will both be controlled by the same algorithms anyways (MaxJitter -> Syphon -> MadMapper -> video out + ArtNet out). The visuals running on the LED curtain are out of my hand anyways and therefore don't need to be synced. What I still don't understand though is how I can interact with the lighting console. That's the reason for my questions on the subject (and also my confusion that a different console would make a big difference). I don't know if my program should be 'listening' for cues from the lighting console or if it should be sending signals to the lighting console (or if this is even possible).

 

For example, I have several standard drum'n'bass drum patterns saved in my program that I use to control LED clusters (synced with a MIDI signal from the DJ mixer). Is it stupid to try and send this DMX information to a lighting console to control certain cues? If not, what kind of preparation do I have to do in order to make something like this feasible?

 

And as for my understanding of ArtNet not helping anything, this question was a bit more practical than the others. As our installations grow in scale and complexity, we're purchasing a ArtNet node that can do more than 4 universes and I was asking for some advice on what to watch out for when buying a node. There seems to be a great disparity in a price, and you never know whether or not it's a good deal or if it's just simply a case of 'you get what you pay for'.

 

 

@TonyMitchell, I was referring to the "vidiot" comment :P Though no offense taken, I admit they are uninformed questions.

 

Thank you for the quick replies

[top-cat]

I am struggling to get my head around the situation but I have done things like this so I will try...

 

Firstly I cannot seem to see this. In your OP you say you have 80+ intelligent lighting fixtures... are you controlling these or is somebody else controlling them? And the video - is that you? Or multiple people?

 

If practical it may be workable to network numerous lighting desks of the same sort. I have used this method before. Then it is '1' lighting desk, made up of multiple surfaces. You can use a dedicated visuals-control LX desk (since most modern desks have pretty good control of media servers, I have only used it on Chamsys and MA and I find both very capable) and since the desk treats the media server as a lighting fixture really, it will only affect the values that you want it to affect. This means that you can retain as much, or as little, local control on the media server as you like, and only give certain parameters to the lighting desk. One benefit of doing it this way, rather than 'exposing' parameters over ArtNet, is the number and types of parameters which are controlled by the lighting desk can be varied cue-to-cue.

 

So you might have a *Desk 1* controlling your lighting fixtures and a *Desk 2* controlling your media server. But since they are networked, in the bigger picture the *Desk 1* and *Desk 2* just represent "the control". This setup then allows video world to have hands on control of all their media, LX world to have hands on control of their lighting... and as much or as little bridging between the two as you like.

 

If you are controlling both the lights and the media server from the same control though, I see no reason to involve the second desk.

 

Controlling media servers from lighting desks is very easy and since the desk only really acts as a remote control for it, you can, like I say, retain as much control as you like on the media server itself, and of course any additional software you're using in the media server such as Mad Mapper are not affected and deal with the content no differently.

 

Feel free to tell me if I've got the wrong end of the stick and am completely missing the boat here.

 

 

*As an aside, I would argue that there is no real substance to the claim that a PC Wing would be useless in this scenario. It's limitations are in hands-on control (since there are less encoders, buttons and faders than some of the bigger consoles) and in I/O and connectivity - in that it only has it's USB, 2 DMX, and Audio interface. HOWEVER, the wing is only half the game. The addition of a capable computer changes the game. You will get ArtNet functionality through the network card on the computer and the size and number of monitors which you use (touch screen if you like) can give you a good amount of hands on control. Software-wise it's as capable as any of the bigger boards.

 

I can't work out how to embed images from Google drive but I've put a folder with illustrations here.

[dosxuk]

What I still don't understand though is how I can interact with the lighting console. That's the reason for my questions on the subject (and also my confusion that a different console would make a big difference). I don't know if my program should be 'listening' for cues from the lighting console or if it should be sending signals to the lighting console (or if this is even possible).

 

Why do you need to use a lighting console?

 

What purpose do you envisage it having? It sounds to me like you're running all the control from your own systems, which are outputting DMX - why does it need to go anywhere near a lighting console?

 

If, on the other hand, you're having someone operate your 80 fixtures from this console, then I'd want the person operating the desk to have some choice in it's selection. There's everything from a laptop with a USB stick up to huge multi-surface networks, all and any of which could be the correct choice for an individual job.

 

@TonyMitchell, I was referring to the "vidiot" comment :P Though no offense taken, I admit they are uninformed questions.

 

"Vidiot" is a common name applied to those people dealing with video / projection on events - same as "lampies" and "noise boys". Yes, it's a bit (lot!) more derogatory, but the name seems to have stuck. Don't take it personally!