Monitor Engineering tips

[jbaileypro]

Hi all,

 

I little background about me. I have been working for around a year and half as a sound engineer in a professional sense. I have been doing plenty of bits before while at college and working for a couple of hire companies. Two of the venues I work for are mainly as a monitor engineer. I am confident and I am happy that I get good results.

 

I am asking the very knowledgeable and experienced blue room community for some helpful tips to help speed up some of the process.

 

The main thing that I asking for another view on is at the beginning of a sound check. Most the bands that come through both venues tour their own FOH engineer but not monitor engineer. Skip forward to the when we start getting levels from everyone. The FOH engineering is usually calling the shots and I just have enough time to get headamp, HPF and a gate dialed in before they move on to the next input. The only time I have enough time to create a rough mix is when the drummer is playing around the kit. When the band start their first band I am still only just getting a mix in their wedges or worse, I have to go around everyone to ask about their levels in their mixes.

 

Does anyone have tips on speeding up this process? Do people usually set a rough mix before they even start sound checking?

 

The other questions is about what others put in side fills. I understand side fills as being a general mix of the whole band. I try to keep any vocals in the front wedges to help both with feedback from the side fills and keeping the vocals as clear as possible. I believe that less is more (the less inputs that are going into the wedges the cleaner they are). I also leave things like overheads out of the side fills as the stages are not massive. Is this on the right path?

 

Do any of you ring out your side fills or put vocals in them? Do you mix them as separate mono mixes or as a stereo mix or a linked mono mix?

 

The kit I am using if you are interested are:

Soundcraft VI6, Yamaha LS9 or M7CL, Allen & Heath GL or similar desk usually around 25 to 40 inputs. 6 to 14 mixes (including side fills and IEMs)

Toured Sennheiser IEMs

House Adlib wedges and Drum Sub or D&B M4 with Q subs. D&B C series side fills or Martin 3 way Side Fills.

 

Thanks

[peza2010]

Im confused....

 

just ask the FOH engineer to slow down.

 

I'd normally expect to come across a "are you happy with that?" "yep cheers" type of deal, not you having to keep up with the monitor engineer.

[kurzweil_dude]

I also leave things like overheads out of the side fills as the stages are not massive. Is this on the right path?

How does it sound to you?

Has bands ever asked for OHs in the fills?

[gibbothegreat]

Unplug his CAT5 until you're ready...http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif

[paulears]

The Monitor engineer is more important to the band. It's usually the other way around, with FOH just setting rough eq, and levels and tweaking gently once the band start. The monitor guy has the hassle of getting enough gain before feedback, and setting the bands monitors is key. When I'm playing, the monitor mix is crucial for my performance, so all four of us NEED our monitor mix to be done properly. We really are not interested in FOH at all at this point. When I have to use wedges (because I won't use IEMs with a monitor guy I don't trust) I need to explain what I want. I do know that I don't want any compression or gates or a HPF dialled in as some kind of 'preset'. I just want to say more, more more - stop, next, more more - and rarely will we stop until we get into feedback territory, where we'll decide if we want skewed frequency response and more volume, or nicer sounding and quieter. That's what I expect from a monitor man. It doesn't take that much time - especially if the drums and keys have been grouped - I might need a bit more kick or snare, but generally I can just ask for drums or keys or bass

[Electrolytic]

I've experienced this doing festival monitors, rapid line check and no sound check. best thing to do was introduce yourself and ask what they normally like/have in the monitors. Less professional band will say everything. You have to interpret what they are asking with what you know from experience. Watch yourself not getting pulled into 'more me mixes' where everything just keeps going up and it gets silly. If you find yourself going around in circles with the same requests off a band member staring pulling back other elements in the mix.

I wouldn't spend time on gates because, once the first number kicks its usually different.

I doubt anyone asks for overheads in wedges, cymbals usually cut through, sometimes hi-hats but generally not, IEMs yes probably. most hard walled venues don't need them in FOH!

 

once the lines are checked, they run through a song or partially. Ask them straight after. If they do another song ask again then get the next band on.

 

get a rough mix of vocals across the wedges, kick to the drummer and then start from there.

[Funky Dave]

In my experience, when doing a line check, you don't move on to the next channel until both engineers are happy. In the sound check, monitors are the most important. After checking the signal in my headphones and setting the gain appropriately, I will then send the signal to the monitor that the musician wants to hear from. I will check that they can hear their self through their monitor and they are happy with the sound, then I will ask if anyone else wants to hear that and then send it to their monitor, before we move on. If someone asks for a mix of everything in the monitor then I will usually only put what I think they need. Usually only their self. If I don't get to ask them what they want then I will put only vocals in the front wedges, kick in the drum fill and let them ask for anything else. Always put as little as possible in the monitors.

[Peter F]

The main thing that I asking for another view on is at the beginning of a sound check. Most the bands that come through both venues tour their own FOH engineer but not monitor engineer. Skip forward to the when we start getting levels from everyone. The FOH engineering is usually calling the shots and I just have enough time to get headamp, HPF and a gate dialed in before they move on to the next input. The only time I have enough time to create a rough mix is when the drummer is playing around the kit. When the band start their first band I am still only just getting a mix in their wedges or worse, I have to go around everyone to ask about their levels in their mixes.

 

Does anyone have tips on speeding up this process? Do people usually set a rough mix before they even start sound checking?

 

Stop using the gates. You probably don't need them and if you set them up wrong they will annoy most drummers. Even if you set them up right they will annoy most drummers if they notice them.

Do carry on using the HPFs. You can take a pretty good guess at these right across the board. Set them at the same time as labelling the inputs.

 

Do take control of the stage. I know the foh engineer tends to call the shots, but that's mostly because they are touring with them. You wont get enough time to finely craft the eq on each channel but really you shouldn't need to. Don't delay the soundchecking of every channel, no-one really wants to be there longer than necessary, but do feel confident enough to ask for a bit of Kick/Snare/Hat together so you can get the balance of these right and start to build up a mix on stage.

 

Get vocals in their respective wedges before the soundcheck gets going. Leave them there. Sensible level, not stupid loud on the edge of feedback, just sensible. It means your mix doesn't change massively when you get to soundchecking vocals after everything else. It's also a good way of checking that your vocal channels are in the right place, your wedge mixes are, and both are working before you have a bunch of bored musicians spotting your faults/mistakes for you.

 

 

The other questions is about what others put in side fills. I understand side fills as being a general mix of the whole band. I try to keep any vocals in the front wedges to help both with feedback from the side fills and keeping the vocals as clear as possible. I believe that less is more (the less inputs that are going into the wedges the cleaner they are). I also leave things like overheads out of the side fills as the stages are not massive. Is this on the right path?

 

Put nothing in the sidefills. Leave them in the warehouse if no-one asked for them. They are the destroyer of sound mixes! Perhaps that's a bit strong, but they can be a pain.

They almost certainly don't want to be a general mix of the band (unless you are mixing Deep Purple, in which case that is exactly what they want to be. But they have a monitor engineer, very nice chap he is too, so unless he's having a day off you are unlikely to be doing that gig. But if you get it, that's how to do it.)

 

Don't put overheads anywhere except into IEM mixes. Even then, wait until someone asks for them. Why would anyone using IEM not have a monitor engineer? That's another story I suppose. You can call the no overheads anywhere suggestion a rule. It is one of the only monitor rules. Like any other rule it is made to be broken but only very rarely. I've only allowed it to be broken twice, both time with drummers that were wearing headphones for click track but using a normal drumfill. Anyone else who asks for overheads in their monitors is wrong.

 

If you really want to second guess what goes in the sidefills, perhaps a bit of Kick/Snare/Hat? But if it was me and a band I didn't know I'd just wait until they ask for something. If they are a band who aren't used to having monitors a good question to ask them is "What can't you hear?" It makes them think a bit.

 

Do any of you ring out your side fills or put vocals in them? Do you mix them as separate mono mixes or as a stereo mix or a linked mono mix?

Seperate mono mixes always.

Sidefills are not a giant pair of stereo headphones for the singer.

 

The kit I am using if you are interested are:

Soundcraft VI6, Yamaha LS9 or M7CL, Allen & Heath GL or similar desk usually around 25 to 40 inputs. 6 to 14 mixes (including side fills and IEMs)

Toured Sennheiser IEMs

House Adlib wedges and Drum Sub or D&B M4 with Q subs. D&B C series side fills or Martin 3 way Side Fills.

 

You are very lucky, you get to use good quality kit (and an LS9). This helps make your job as a monitor engineer much, much easier. I do have a theory that the much improved quality of speakers nowadays is taking away a lot of the skills of monitor engineers. Back when I were a lad, in fact not even a lad, lets just go back 10 years, the biggest battle a monitor engineer had was trying to get a half decent sound at a half decent volume out of questionably decent wedges before they feedback. There used to be an almost industry standard wedge, an LE400. They were everywhere you went. No two LE400s ever sounded the same. You would have to spend every day faffing about with a graphic eq to try and coax the sound you wanted out of them. Nowadays eveything is set up for you. The processing, the amplifying, the speakers are all optimised well. There aren't many monitors you couldn't use with a totally flat graphic and get good results out of them. The Adlib stuff might need a tweak here and there, that's not to say they are any worse than all the other stuff listed, they're damn good wedges, maybe better than some of the others because they haven't been quite so sanitised? The Martin fills might not be great out of the box, usually because someone who thinks the know better than the manufacturer has written there own crossover preset or the amps have been swapped. Best advice would be to get them sounding good by adjusting High, Mid, Low levels on the crossovers or amps before you start butchering the eq. Get the balance right first.

 

Top tip for using a graphic equaliser: Leave it alone.

No, seriously, are your ears and knowledge better than the entire d&b R&D department? Are L'acoustics knocking on your door asking for preset suggestions? They aren't knocking on mine. OK, venues have the odd problem resonant frequency you might need to notch out. Pull out 160 if you must, no-one will miss 160. But if you find you've got a graphic with all sorts pulled out (and it will be pulled out, only the daring will add something on a graphic) then your problem is probably elsewhere. Actually, no your problem is probably that you have too much pulled out on the graphic. All you do by pulling out loads of frequencies is destroy everything good about the wedge, mainly by creating phase anomalies if you want the technical lowdown.

 

I've got a better way to explain or demonstrate it: Listen to some track or your voice on a flat wedge, sensible level. Then pull out 6dB on every single band on your graphic. Listen to it now, it's quieter? Good, you have inserted the graphic properly. Now, push the master fader up so that the volume is roughly the same as it was when the graphic was flat. Have a listen, it won't sound the same.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

[Wilflet]

from the Vi and adlib wedges Im assuming we're talking about an academy venue?

The FoH engineer has probably had a Vi most days of the tour and a similar mics package and brought a show file, so his dynamics, effects, EQ etc are all pretty close, and many of his channels (paticually anything DIed where differences in mic placement arnt a factor) are a matter of checking they work rather than starting from the zeroed channel you are.

 

 

Eventually you become fast enough you can run a monitor desk that fast, just about. but realistically FoH needs to slow down if you cant keep up.

 

 

On larger shows where your soundchecking/line checking with backline techs not the band (who may get confused by such) the backline guys wait for the ok from both ends before move on.

Some FoH engineers (and this is how I try to work when iv got a show file) let the monitor engineer call the check and interject if they have a problem.

 

 

If need be just tell FoH you need a minute.

[toby]

definately +1 for asking FOH to slow down, or ask that you call the soundcheck? what it boils down to - foh is doing 1 mix that sounds good to them, on monitors in your case your doing 6 - 14 mixes that sound good to someone else that doesnt ring when they ask for often a huge amount that isnt always achievable

dont ask dont get :)