Sound in The Crypt at St. Paul's Cathedral

[Funky Dave]

Hi, I'm Dave, this is my first post but I have been reading your forum on and off for about eight years, although I am new to you, you guys are not new to me. http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

I work for a sound hire company, I'm not a sound engineer, I'm a system tech but have engineered many bands over the years. ...... Just thought I should introduce myself before I start with my quandary

I have lots of experience in the dance/club world, festivals also. We have supplied sound for a few corporate events but have never worked in a church/cathedral environment. We have a couple of extremely good sound engineers that work for the company on a regular basis and both have worked in church environments but neither have worked in St. Paul's Cathedral.

We have a client that we have been working with for many years as a promoter of dance events. He has asked if we can provide the production for a corporate event that he is planning at St. Paul's Cathedral next year. Sound, lighting and stage. Of course I will go and visit the place with the client and take an experienced sound engineer with me, before I specify the production equipment and submit a pro-forma quote but he has asked for a ball-park figure, so they know what to budget.

The event is a question time presentation with a panel of leading bodies from the commercial property world. The audience will be approx 200 seated round tables. I have been given some photos of the venue (the Crypt) and there are two rows of pillars down each side of the room, splitting the room into thirds. I can post the photos if you like but I am ideally looking for information from people that have worked in this venue before. I can make my own guesses from looking at the pics but any opinions are welcome.

Does anybody have experience with this venue? The Crypt, St. Paul's Cathedral.

The systems we have available are Martin Audio F12, WT2, WT3, W8C, W8LC, W8L, Funktion-One Res 2/3/4/5, d&b audiotechnik E6, E12, Q1, Q7 or T10, I'm not suggesting that they are all suitable or that any of them are suitable, just that is what we have.

We are keen to expand into the corporate market and feel that this is a great opportunity to get our foot in the door in a big way, so the job has to be done right and done well. Obviously we need to use the right tools for the job.

So if anyone has experience of this venue then I would be grateful to hear about your experience with it. What are the acoustics like in the Crypt? How reverberant is it? Do you have any opinions about the most suitable system for this venue? It doesn't have to be a system from the list above, we have no problem with sub-hiring the right kit for the job but of course it would be ideal if we could use a system that we already have in stock.

At the moment, I don't know where the panel of presenters will be but looking at the pics, I don't think it will be possible to cover the venue with speakers at one end. I presume that with all those pillars, that there will need to be multiple small speakers on sticks.

Any opinions will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Dave

 

[TonyMitchell]

Have not worked this particular venue, but have done many churches, etc, where you're dealing with stone & glass in every direction.

Of the inventory you've listed, E6 will be perfect for the job. Small boxes, wide horizontal pattern and enough of them distributed so you can keep them at levels that won't be problematic. Twin forks will be useful & take plenty of rubber cable covers & more cabling than for any other type of venue, as you'll end up going the long way around to go a short distance as the crow flies.

[Funky Dave]

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking the E6's would be most suitable from the list. Cable cover is a good point, thanks. I guess gaffa tape cable covers are not acceptable on a job like this. http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[Pete McCrea]

We've found that these sorts of establishments are generally happy with 6mm fine fluted rubber for walk mat over cables. A quick google will get you to commercial rubber product distributors that should make it reasonably cost effective to purchase.

[Funky Dave]

Thanks, that maybe a lot cheaper than the ready made rubber cable covers. We have a load of rubber cable covers in stock, they are not the heavy duty outdoor type, they are the office type ones that are about 100mm wide, only good for small cables, no good for Multicores or multiple cables.

[2Bit]

Have you been given the go ahead to actually work in the crypt? It used to be only approved suppliers who could work in there - the same deal as lots of other high end museums, galleries etc in London

[Funky Dave]

That may be the case, I don't know. Our client has asked us because he has worked with us before, he is happy with the service he gets from us and doesn't want to work with anyone else. I don't know if he has actually been given the go-ahead to use his own supplier. I don't know if he has enquired with St. Paul's about appropriate sound contractors. The client forwarded an email to me from the venue, it describes the Crypt and some photos. There is no mention in the email about preferred sound contractors. I will ask the client to check this out.

[2Bit]

Defo worth doing as some venues are a lot fussier than others about it & t'would be good to know before you start putting lots of work into a quote...

It won't just be sound contractors either - it'll be production, flowers, caterers, funriture etc etc. Theres an approved list for everything!

 

A lot of it comes down to the fact that the approved suppliers (should) know what works in there, how to handle the heritage/rare building & contents, any access issues (normally phyisical & time), knows where that 63A single is, knows that you can cross that doorway with gaffer, but that doorways needs ramping etc etc etc rather than dealing with lots of individual companies, repeating the same info & answers and risking their building, contents, the event and their reputation as a quality event space.

 

Approved supplier should equal knowledge & quality

One off suppliers equals risk

[ImagineerTom]

Loading in and out of the crypt is a nightmare - the one thing everyone I've ever met who's worked there has said is that they basically have to get a crew in especially for the load / out because its such a hassle.

[Funky Dave]

A lot of it comes down to the fact that the approved suppliers (should) know what works in there, how to handle the heritage/rare building & contents, any access issues (normally phyisical & time), knows where that 63A single is, knows that you can cross that doorway with gaffer, but that doorways needs ramping etc etc etc rather than dealing with lots of individual companies, repeating the same info & answers and risking their building, contents, the event and their reputation as a quality event space.

 

Good point, a lot of hotels and high profile venues have a contract with one AV supplier. It makes a lot of sense to use the same company for the reasons you point out. Over the years we have worked in a few high profile London hotels that have approved suppliers and for whatever reason we have been used for a one-off event. I have emailed my client with a rough ball park figure and asked if he has enquired about this.

I won't spend much time putting a quote together until I have seen the venue and I won't be seeing the venue if one-off suppliers are not allowed. As for load-in and load out crew, we normally have a crew for that anyway, how many crew we have, will be determined after I have seen the venue.

[dan slv-tech]

Having worked in the crypt, I can tell you now, that height isnt your friend in there, very low at the sides (its a crypt after all) so any ideas of pilling up big stacks of PA is unlikely to happen,

also bare in mind, the narrow stair into the crypt from the under ground loading bay - as mentioned its a ball ache, id say that at its height its about 12ft in the middle, then arches and pillars everywhere -

Taping cables, make sure you have the good gaffa, and they prefer "sausages in corners"

 

Acoustics wise, its a crypt, so id go with something like an E3 and lots of them distributed around rather than splashing noise from one end -

 

I wish you well dragging staging in there :)

 

Dan

[Funky Dave]

Thanks for the very helpful insight. I certainly wouldn't use big stacks of PA, it's for speech reproduction. As you say, lots of small speakers is best. As for getting the kit up the stairs, it won't be me, it will be the local crew that the client would supply. If the job is to go ahead, then I will make a site visit before quoting and if necessary we could supply 4x4 pieces of stage rather that 8x4.... Out of interest what do you mean by "sausages in corners"?

[BlueShift]

From your list, I'd be using the d&b E6s (a new version of the E3, essentially) or T10s.

 

Distributed systems are the way forward. Not to mention you can put the rather light E6 on a nice slim round-base-mic-style stand.

 

Find someone who has done the space before for best results!

[Funky Dave]

The client has spoken to the venue and has confirmed that they do require an approved production crew but my client says there are plenty of other venues to choose from and he will find another venue where he can use our company for production. It's nice to hear that, coming rom a valued client, it makes me feel appreciated for all the hard work we put in. http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif