The *silent* band

[BigYinUK]

Well, at rehearsal anyway.

 

Electronic drums (Roland V Drum), Di'd bass, keys, guitar via a Line 6 POD, everything monitored in-ears via our P16 system. Only the vocals making any noise.

 

Actually, it was very successful and nice to be able to set your volume at *any* level comfortable.

 

Here's a question though.... Bassist thinks we should try it "with a PA" in case we don't sound like we think we do. I can see just about where he's coming from but I'm more inclined to say that as we can actually hear properly both ourselves and each other that the playing *must* therefore be better so we should sound better whatever. Plus when you're gigging with someone else's in house PA (our usual scenario) you're completely at their mercy. Providing all the sound sources are good quality and the playing is tight and competent surely that's it, cracked, job done?

 

I've heard this type of comment from bass players before, they like to think they have some shaping control over their sound fiddling endlessly with the EQ on their Ashdown's but in reality they are nearly always DI'd pre-EQ so FOH has ultimate control over the bass sound. Guitars of course are slightly different as overdrive and effects pedals etc play such a large part in creating the sound.

 

Anyone care to comment?

 

Regards

[azlan]

you might find that guitar and bass might sound a bit bright though a PA compared to what the musicians are expecting as often the cabs used have a natural HF rolloff that may not be included in the output of the pod's (I don't know if they do cabinet emulation)

 

The other thing might be that the bassist in particular wants to make sure that he sounds punchy and has enough LF content that his headphones may not be reproducing accurately

[BigYinUK]

The PODs do have cabinet emulation although the one I'm using is a very old model and I'm not intending to use it live BUT I have just bought Line 6's latest digital amp modelling fx board which is designed to replace the guitar amp and effects pedals entirely and run straight onto the PA. It'll be interesting to see how good this sounds, if its not good enough it'll be going back and I'll carry on using my Blackstar with a remotely miked up cab.

[smalljoshua]

Sounds like the basist is missing the "feel" something a sidefill style setup (at least during rehearsals) would help return. Mix it as another mons mix though, not as a FOH mix!

 

Josh

[Electrolytic]

if its not good enough it'll be going back and I'll carry on using my Blackstar with a remotely miked up cab.

 

what about a weber attenuator?

 

obviously when you play a gig there will be a lot more low end present, and low end is hard to block for ear plugs or IEMs, hence your in-ear mixes may differ in the field.

[paulears]

Having adjusted nicely to in-ears, this is actually my next step - I play bass, and I like the sound of the instrument, although I prefer a small 2 x10" combo. On bigger stages I'm using a 4 x 10" cab, but my in-ears either have a DI feed, or a 57 on the cab. I tweak the eq on the Behringer P16M to something that I like. As the people on stage with me who like volume (guitar and keys) have my bass in their wedges to some degree, I'm thinking of doing the DI and no amp route. I don't have a problem with this, apart from the emergency situation when I could pull the ears out and just hear my amp, although I think I could probably get used to the 'no parachute' idea. I have a Behringer V-amp pro for my guitar, and I think that as I don't really use any effects on bass, this would be fine for my bass, or even use the rack DI that's already in the IEM rack. Keys is thinking about the P16M too, as he sees me set my own mixes. He's just bought two of those small behringer powered speakers that he can mount on a mic stand, so as they will be closer, that's another noise source on stage dropping in volume. I'll not convince the guitarist about reducing volume as he is the kind of person who has been told that his amp sounds better and his footboard FX plugged direct will sound inferior. He hasn't tried it, but he just knows.

[mervaka]

The PODs do have cabinet emulation although the one I'm using is a very old model and I'm not intending to use it live BUT I have just bought Line 6's latest digital amp modelling fx board which is designed to replace the guitar amp and effects pedals entirely and run straight onto the PA. It'll be interesting to see how good this sounds, if its not good enough it'll be going back and I'll carry on using my Blackstar with a remotely miked up cab.

 

I'm very much a fan of Blackstar's direct out, at least on the series one. Can't say I've tried the HT series.

[BigYinUK]

Regarding the direct out on the Blackstar, I tried it and hated it. On my model anyway, there is a compressed buzzy'ness to the bottom end that I can't live with. Miking the extension speaker up off stage and coming back through the in-ears works well technically and gives a great sound but its the hassle of the two heavy boxes, cables, mics etc. If the POD HD500X is just about good enough, that has to be the solution for us.

 

Regarding the bass guitar, I think its 'cos he somehow feels its lost the 'punch' cos he's not hearing/feeling a pounding bottom end. His in-ears are very good, much better than he thought they'd be - Westone UM2s.

 

Personally I think its just a question of getting used to it. We gigged the week before last with the in-ears (no backline at all) and it was the best we'd ever sounded according to one of our ardent followers. The sound was much cleaner and more "hi fi" apparently, probably due to no backline bleeding through the mics etc. All music (groan) to my ears.

 

I'm not keen on the idea of side fills as it defeats the main object of going in-ears, which was to keep the stage volume really low; as any noise, particularly bass, makes it difficult for the singer to hear and pitch. We're trying to persuade her that molds for her SE215s is the answer but its the additional expense that's the main issue.

 

Paul - guitar sound wise I know where your guitarist is coming from as we (guitarists) do tend to think that without the volume something will be lost. In reality I'm coming round to thinking that its mostly a myth. I *know* I'm playing better than ever with the in-ears as I'm hearing clearer every nuance of my playing rather than (a) struggling to hearing myself above all the rest of the band or (b) having to live with not hearing anything of the rest of the guys 'cos I'm blasting away in a world of my own. In a perfect world yes its true that a modeller is not the same as a cooking valve amp and if the band is all about the guitar sound (eg a Joe Bonamassa, Gary Moore etc gig) then you'd go with whatever amp does the job and the rest of the band and the sound engineer have to work around the axe-man BUT most bands are about the sound as a whole and a guitar player being precious about his sound is not going to help the overall performance. In any case by the time the guitar has gone through the PA and been EQ'd up its inevitably going to sound totally different to what the guitarist is hearing from his cab.

 

If I have a sound through my in-ears that I'm happy with them I'm good to go. The *only* possible negative is the lack of "sound to guitar body" feedback although I cracked that by moving right to the front of the stage where the guitar was able to resonate to the sound coming from the FOH. I only need that "feel" for a couple of solos and it seemed to work tbh.

 

Jon

[Hypersound]

Jon

I have a little 1x12 wedge loaded with the Eminence twin cone job (can't remember the model but could probably find it) that Eminence started producing shortly after EV mysteriously decided to stop producing the very similar drivers that used to grace the early Boogie cabs. Point is (of course) that it is in front of you and pointing straight at your strings rather than at the back of your legs and the audience so great for sustain and much more controllable and repeatable (for want of a better word) than using the PA. Also, if you do go into serious feedback mode with a cycle involving the PA you are likely to start blowing compression drivers. The driver has a fairly flat response within the frequency range of a guitar so, in a properly designed box, should give you harmonics that sound right for what you are hearing in your IEs. I used it with a POD XT Pro and actually preferred working that way even without the IEs. Using a normal wedge for monitoring instead of IEs you have to be a bit careful that you are generating feedback through your own wedge rather than the monitoring. Long day and a couple of glasses of scotch so hope that helps a bit.

Andy

[S&L]

I think we tend to forget that band rehearsals serve two purposes. One is for the musicians get the material right and the other is to solve technical stage issues. This is a problem I come across regularly with some bands, not so much with 'in ears' but where they rehearse in a circle and/or play at elevated volumes.

I know one small touring band that rehearse with full PA and crew to be sure that all problems are minimised away from time pressured set ups.

 

I learned early on as a teen, the advantage of rehearsing with a set up as near to identical to that you would use on stage as is possible.

that includes where amps and band members would likely stand/sit. after all you are really only using your back line to fill the volume of the stage and level up with the drums anyway. this will shake loose cables that may be wearing, dodgy amp settings, listening and watching for cues where you don't have a dream mix all the time.

Now if you all work with in ears, all the time then maybe there is merit in working on in ears while rehearsing. I know more than one singer that does this to give an equivalence of their live sound.

rehearsing this way also shakes loose stage choreography, whether that's a bass players pirouettes or more practically where the dead space is on stage for placing spare guitars and keeping them out of trip zones.

I guess what I'm trying to say then is that silent rehearsals are fine but there is an area of rehearsal that we take for granted and that you won't be addressing while you remain silent.

[Thomas1987]

I've got a gig in a few weeks with a "silent stage" band - Roland drum kit, all guitars through units etc... I am apparently going to be given a left and right to run into the house desk and they set that from stage. Quite unusual in a 1500 capacity gig, interested to see how it works. They've been doing it for years so presumably works!

[S&L]

I've got a gig in a few weeks with a "silent stage" band - Roland drum kit, all guitars through units etc... I am apparently going to be given a left and right to run into the house desk and they set that from stage. Quite unusual in a 1500 capacity gig, interested to see how it works. They've been doing it for years so presumably works!

 

I did this last year for a band at a Lancashire Wedding venue with noise restrictions - but still brought all channels back to the desk. I was stage-side mixing for that show and te thing I found weirdest was being able to have a conversation with the keyboard player above the level of the band. the whole band found it a little odd.

[paulears]

It's a crazy situation to spend ages installing a PA, and only to haver the vocal faders up. It happens to my own band all the time in the smaller venues. It also means tha your overall volume is set by the sources the PA has on zero - so the vocal go up, and maybe tiny bits of a few things get added to make the balance right - but this is just too high for the venue, and probably the music style. I was even sad to discover that my own bass was too loud, and I didn't notice because in my IEM insulated world, my own mix was lovely - but with them in, I didn't know my amp was too loud.

 

I find it very difficult to swap between gathered in a circle rehearsal setup and the stage version. However, learning new songs for us doesn't go quickly in stage layout and sound.

[johnny-t-goode]

I'll not convince the guitarist about reducing volume as he is the kind of person who has been told that his amp sounds better and his footboard FX plugged direct will sound inferior. He hasn't tried it, but he just knows.

 

As a guitarist, bass player and singer myself, I get where the guitarist is coming from, playing directly into my amp for the AC/DC tribute I used to play in was awesome, sometimes the lead was a bit thin but it worked overall, now I'm in a different band covering all sorts of songs and need a more versatile sound. Using my LINE 6 into the amp sounds awful to my ears, as I just can't seem to get the sound I want, and it's forever a battle, however the board straight into a PA system sounds awesome as I use the full Cab/Amp emulations that way, however leaves me feeling a bit 'naked' even with a monitor. I am getting used to it though.

 

Rehearsals can now be done anywhere as drummer is on an electric kit and I have found that rehearsals have become more constructive as communication is now much easier as volume levels in the initial stages are so much lower we can actually talk during songs as opposed to screaming at each other to stop to work on something. Once we've sorted the arrangements we will set up as per 'live' situation and see what it sounds like. I thought our sound guy was going to kiss me when I told him we were losing on-stage amps and he'd have total control.

 

Just wondering what the 'silent' feel will be like when playing on stage in front of an audience after years of having the main bulk of sound behind me.....

[BigYinUK]

johnny - Which Line6 board have you got?

 

I've just bought a POD HD500X board, it arrives tomorrow. Hopefully it'll allow me to operate completely amp-less.

 

We've done 2 gigs "silent stage" and my honest opinion was that it made no difference to how the gig felt, the big difference was that I was able to hear everything properly and my ears weren't ringing at the end of the gig :)

 

A lot of the problems loud amps on stage cause tend to disappear anyway on a large stage. A few years ago I did a local festival and it was a huge stage - My Marshall combo looked like a sandwich box at the back of the stage and I could hardly hear it, really needed the foldback under those circumstances.