Ambient mic for in-ears?

[BigYinUK]

Hi all

 

What type of mic would be best for an iems only monitoring scenario? By that I mean, uni or omni directional, dynamic or condenser?

 

Also where would be the best place to put it, at the front of the stage facing the audience etc?

 

Regards all

 

Jon

[paulears]

Easy one. Directional enough to avoid the on-stage sounds if they are loud, and able to point away from the speakers. I've had some good results putting the mic on a stand, behind the speakers, pointing in the same direction as them. I did try pointing one sideways across the stage to hopefully hear what other people on stage might shout, but it just gave me the noisy stuff - guitar and drums.

[Electrolytic]

shotgun mics up in the truss towers above the point source PA pointing at the audience. These were used for live recording but feed to the IEM's to remedy the isolated disconnect. well isolated ( studio monitor foam pads etc. ) condensers on top of the PA stacks might work in a smaller venue.

[S&L]

I would by interested on comments on an allied topic - I did some live recording recently and placed a condenser mic at the mixing desk and pointed in the direction of the audience - the audience (standing only) seemed to congregate half way across the room from the desk (must change my deodorant) - but the level on the recording was so low (despite setting the gain). Other than over stepping the gain at recording stage to compensate, any suggestions?

[Peter F]

I disagree, I don't think there is an easy answer. It depends what you are after with the "ambient" mic.

That you want one I guess means you think something is missing from your IEM mix. What is it?

 

In the past, I have used the following in different scenarios:

 

1. A pair of condensors, either side of stage pointing at the audience.

 

OK if you're after a bit of venue atmosphere for your mix. Not so good if you have so much that you just introduce all the bad acoustics of the venue back to your mix.

 

2. Single condenser on tall stand, behind drummer pointing towards audience.

Good for drummers on ears who don't want to be isolated from the rest of the band. Also quite useful as a way of making other musicians and singers feel like they are in a band. Generally doesn't work well in small venues or low ceiling stages, everything becomes a mess.

 

3. Pair of 58's/57's either side of stage, pointing at the audience. I use this a lot. It's great for bands who want to hear the audience response between songs. You have to drop it down during songs otherwise the mix becomes tiring but bring it up gradually towards the end of the show to introduce a bit of roughness and excitement to the ears mixes. Always use 2, placement is a bit hit and miss and their is a tendency for them to single out one gob on a stick in the front rows.

 

4. The house offers you a feed of their flown, recording ambient/atmos mics. Always wrong. I think it's the distance and phase issues, they never sit comfortably with the rest of the mix.

 

Oh, just remembered no.5. For a while I toyed with a Sennheiser 506's (I think? Clip on tom mics) Used to clip them to the individual vocal stands and use them to recreate a bit of the sound the band members got before going on ears. Thinking about it, I'm not sure why I stopped doing this, it worked really well even if I got lots of funny looks from house engineers.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

[BigYinUK]

Some good ideas to try there. Tx all

[paulears]

Peter's comments are interesting. It does mean the person doing monitors has a much higher workload - especially if they're having to do a changing and challenging mix - like the example of the end of gig changes.I'm finding the ambient mix difficult to 'guess' in advance with my personal mixer. A song a bit dead - so up the ambient, then the audience like the song, so make more noise, so it's too loud, but I can't adjust it mid song - nice to think somebody would be able to do this for me, but with a monitor guy doing four mixes stage side, I fear that as most are reactive, rather than proactive, it wouldn't be much different? I love the concept of a mic on each stand, but unless in the care of a very understanding operator,wouldn't that be very difficult to make sit right?

 

Irony doesn't really work in text - but as I said Easy!

[BlueShift]

My go-to method is to have 2 pairs:

 

I have a short boom stand each side of stage, on the downstage edge, pointing toward the crowd. High enough that you don't just hear the one guy infront of them, but close enough to the crowd that you get a good crowd:PA ratio. On each stand is a stereo bar, and on this is a shotgun (think Senn ME66/MKH416) and a small diaphragm condenser (something really smooth, like a KM184 or KSM137).

 

So I end up with a pair of shotguns and a pair of condensers. Having them mounted right close together means they are as in-phase as possible, so mixing them together doesn't introduce too much comb filtering.

 

The shotguns will provide pretty much pure crowd response, whereas the condensers will be a bit more of a general 'vibe': crowd, room & PA.

 

I use the condensers as a base, and then ride the shotguns in and out to get the crowd response.

 

I'm not using the ambience to add 'band feel' though. Thats all done by creating the right mix in the first place (and by some use of effects). I'm using it to get some of the venue back into the ears, and to get crowd response for the frontman...

[Peter F]

My perspective on ambients is as a monitor engineer so probably able to use them in a much more active way than both the original poster and Paul.

 

You really do need to decide what the ambients are for. As BlueShift says, and I agree, if you are using them for band feel then your iem mix is most likely the problem. Adding unpredictable ambients ain't going to help. And they will be unpredictable, more often than not they are useless in an empty room at soundcheck.

 

If I was in a band doing the self op route I think the clip on mic on your vocal stand would be well worth trying. If you've got one of those IEM boxes that lets you blend two mixes, perhaps send desk monitor mix to one and personal ambient mic to the other then you have s bit of tweakability on your beltpack.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

[BigYinUK]

@Peter

 

We have better than that. We use the Behringer Powerplay personal mixer system. Every member of the band has their own controller and in-ears so we would just plug a mic into the P16i and then each member could add signal from the ambient mic if they wished.

 

The question was really about which mic (or type of mic) would be best, though its very useful to have different suggestions as to their placement.

 

Initially I think I'll try mounting a condenser on the vocalist's stand pointing out at the crowd and see how that flies.

 

Regards all and thanks.

[Wilflet]

@ Big Yin, What is it your after getting with them? crowd noise? source on stage that arnt close-miced? somthing else?

 

 

Oh, just remembered no.5. For a while I toyed with a Sennheiser 506's (I think? Clip on tom mics) Used to clip them to the individual vocal stands and use them to recreate a bit of the sound the band members got before going on ears. Thinking about it, I'm not sure why I stopped doing this, it worked really well even if I got lots of funny looks from house engineers.

Ah I'm not the only one whos done that then!

 

 

I fear that as most are reactive, rather than proactive, it wouldn't be much different?

If you've got a monitor engineer on the show your fine, if you've got someone who sits behind a desk side of stage (theres a difference) thats where your problems come from.

 

 

[BigYinUK]

Just feel a bit "closed in", although tbh it wasn't as bad at the last night gig as I thought it might be.

 

I guess I'd like to hear a bit more clapping, cheering and singing along if we're lucky enough to get that level of audience feedback :)

 

Regards

[paulears]

Last night I remembered this topic, so as I'd got my big mic box with me, I tried an akg 416. Pointed it at the busier area in the crowd where I figured people would be singing and having a good time (rather than the er, elderly section) and it was very strange. Took me one entire song to realise that it was them singing along out of tune, and not us! Something cardioids didn't do. At the break I swapped it for a 57 on the floor and this was much, much better.