New speaker system for small church

[AndyEmery]

Hi all

 

As part of a new church setup we are looking for a speaker package. The church has around 200 people in a small theatre style hall with tiered seating and the budget for the speaker package is 10-12k.

 

I have been looking around and one package of interest is an ex demo set of JBL VRX speakers, 4 tops and 2 subs, with stands and amps for a little over 10k. An options was to try and find some ex hire Meyer UPAs.

 

Do you have any thoughts on these or other options, the speaker package is likely to be paired with a Digico SD11 and aviom but this is still being decided, however, this thread isn't to discuss those!

 

Any questions just shout and thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

[paulears]

The thing with church questions nowadays is that until you go to the actual text you won't know if the question is about home made column speakers costing £100 or something like this. Do we assume that you are using 'church' to denote the people, hence you want a system that can be put in and taken out (the clue was stands in the list), or attached to the building? The only thing could be the bottom end, I guess - you're suggested system may well have been originally specified for a job where the available items were flown, and there would have been some other subs present. The only one of these I bump into from time to time is a 2+2 either side with the tops on a short pole. It sounds nice, but I don't really hear a huge difference in sound from other similar systems that tour in. I do remember the first visit where they had the two subs on the floor, and were using the pole mount, and we found getting the tops on tricky because of the height. I don't remember them being extra heavy or anything, just a bit awkward. On the second visit, the tops were left sitting on the top of the subs - which made me wonder if the touring crew got fed up with it? With one sub, you'd need the pole, but with two, and tiered seating maybe not?

 

I only really remember thinking they were loud, and sounded quite like d&b C series. I doubt in your small theatre building if they'll be worked hard

[AndyEmery]

I use church to try and provide some understanding of what we will be doing with the system. We are not expecting it to be the best system in the world, however, there is a decent budget and this must be reflected in the quality. Our church has the same instruments that any standard band would have so no we are not talking about the £100 column speakers!

 

I mentioned poles because this was in the pack but they probably would not be used, this is for an install and we won't be taking it down every week!

 

It good to hear that you are happy with the sound, are there any other systems you would recommend?

[gibbothegreat]

For that sort of money, this system, advertised on Concert Systems' used equipment page, will do everything you could possibly want and more besides... you'll find it about 2/3rds of the way down the page.

 

d&b 2 x C7 Top, 4 x C7 Sub, 2 x P1200 £10000 1 set 21OC007

[paulears]

I was actually suggesting that for a 200 capacity venue, maybe you don't need to spend that much. The system I heard, and the one Gibbo suggests have both been in my 1400 seat venue, and filled it at rock and roll levels. The C7 is a very frequently seen rig. Some people have double the quantity i.e. 2+4 either side but a 1+2 seems to work just as well. In your small venue, do you actually need that capacity, oomph wise? For a permanent install it will be lovely - my question just being that maybe similar quality at a lower volume could be more cost effective - giving you more to spend on the other bits?

[Stuart91]

I've used UPAs in similar spaces quite regularly over the past few years, they'd almost certainly be a good match for what you're trying to do. If you choose to go down the D&B route, you might find that C6 will cover the space just as well as C7, with the added advantage that they are smaller boxes and easier to mount.

[dbuckley]

I fail to understand how one can suggest that UPAs and d&b as comparable solutions. They are sonically chalk and cheese.

[AndyEmery]

And where would the JBL system fit in? New UPAs are far too expensive so we could only have these if a good used deal can be found. The reason for even considering these is that they are in the existing 1000 seater church.

 

Paulears - Is there a particular system that you have in mind? As always we do want to keep it as small as possible but still packing a good punch and the tops, at least, will be flown on existing rigging.

[Stuart91]

I fail to understand how one can suggest that UPAs and d&b as comparable solutions. They are sonically chalk and cheese.

 

You're clearly not a fan of UPAs, which is fine. "Sonic character" is definitely a matter of personal taste. I prefer cabinets with a bit of "bite" to them, for example I'd be far happier with UPA1s or EV ZX5s rather than Nexo PS15s. Other people will be quite the opposite.

 

But for a small church like the OP is considering, the decision is more likely to come down to cost and availability than the finer points of the voicing of the cabinets. Whilst they are "chalk and cheese", neither option is necessarily "wrong".

 

D&B C6 has a tighter dispersion than a UPA, which may or may not be an advantage depending on the shape of the room. If the church already have UPAs in their larger room it may make sense to stick with this so there's a bit of consistency for engineers moving between the two venues.

[gibbothegreat]

I'd certainly be happy with UPA-1Bs or Cs, but I would tend to avoid As which were definitely the slightly less polished box of the family. If they're UPA-1Ps, so much the better, and if you can find UPJs, better still. Have to say I've never lost the sense of wonder of hearing UPAs for the first time in the early 90's, that 8 of these could fill the Edinburgh Playhouse with such ease (for playback, I should add, not rock'n'roll.) still is cause for some wonder. I suspect that distance and volume of air was kind to their harsher tendencies, but I have done a full-on rock musical with them in a much smaller space and tbh apart from being a little bit hissy durig the silent bits, never found them to be a problem.

 

If you choose to go down the D&B route, you might find that C6 will cover the space just as well as C7, with the added advantage that they are smaller boxes and easier to mount.

 

D&B C6 has a tighter dispersion than a UPA, which may or may not be an advantage depending on the shape of the room. If the church already have UPAs in their larger room it may make sense to stick with this so there's a bit of consistency for engineers moving between the two venues.

If I were going for this size and generation of d&b box, I'd tend to go for the E9* - just something smoother about it, often described as a more 'musical' box than the C6 - and generally easier to find these days as well. Much harder to find 2nd hand, but a quantum leap in terms of sound, is the next generation E12 which (IMHO) just make everything sound amazing - I simply can't remember the last time I used any EQ with these.

 

*That is, of course, taking into account the layout of the space - just as buying new, you want to use the speaker's directionality to your best advantage, directing it to the audience as much as possible and the walls as little as possible. That's true for whichever brand you buy, but pattern control is something that d&b have always done particularly well.

[Stuart91]

If I were going for this size and generation of d&b box, I'd tend to go for the E9* - just something smoother about it, often described as a more 'musical' box than the C6 - and generally easier to find these days as well.

 

I wouldn't disagree with that. My first thought had been that the older C6s might be an easier second-hand find, but they're still popular enough with many hire companies that I suspect they get snapped up as soon as they're on the market.

 

 

I'd certainly be happy with UPA-1Bs or Cs, but I would tend to avoid As which were definitely the slightly less polished box of the family.

 

It's possible to upgrade UPA cabinets - ours have a "C" sticker applied on the side. My recollection is that it's the filter PCB for the HF that is altered. I think they're still available.

[GDJ]

http://www.logicsyst...roducts/origin/ The Logic origin O15 powered system was used in our local 600 seat theatre where I help.Great sound and coverage 3.5k very compact and lightAlso Albert Lee used a D&B C6 and C7 sub package in our local 200 seat arts centrePerfect sound and volumn

[paulears]

I shall probably get shot down, but for a long time, I've been a Tannoy fan. If I were looking for a PA for this project, I'd really like to have a listen to the VXP range - which superseded the ones I've specified for a few projects. Dual concentrics are a bit like Marmite, but I really like the sound, and the strong points for me are clarity. The ones I have used sound more like a loud Hi-Fi, and not a big PA. I've just not heard the new series, but I do know that for your project, they'd be on my list to have a listen to. The ones we've been talking about are those that sound good in big venues when pushed, I can't recommend the Tannoys because as I said, I've not heard the new ones, but the range of cabinets in the range seems to offer plenty of possibilities - AND - they don't look bad. A stack of big square boxes, to be, never look that nice.

[Stuart91]

I put a rig of three VXP12 cabinets into a church installation last month, I think they're around 200 seats in total. Works very well without sounding "shouty". And the prices for new Tannoys isn't ridiculous either.

[cedd]

Indeed, my main workhorse cabinets are Tannoy V12's and I've always thought they sounded lovely. Assuming that for every letter they've added after the initial V (first there was the VX range, now the VXP) there's been an improvement, they're probably still pretty ok! A local receiving house with about 500 seats has a full rig of them and they seem pretty happy with them.

 

My own church sounds to be a similar size to yours. We have a pair of OHM TRS-112 cabinets which seem to do the job ok. Personally I find myself sitting there when I occasionally mix the bigger events we do (I'm not on the usual rota because I'm hardly ever there!) wishing I'd put the V12's up, but it's probably just that I mix on them 99% of the time and know how to get a sound out of them that I like.

 

The Tannoy cabinets also have a nice range of yokes and mounts.

 

Do I guess the VRX cabinets are from SSE? They've got tonnes of the things to get rid of! Well worth talking to somebody in person rather than just taking the website list prices.

 

What's the style of music? We've got Abundant Life Bradford (sorry, Life Bradford now) on our doorsep and their style is significantly more rocky than my own church (which isn't exactly traditional either!). That said, they've also got a couple of hangs of L'Acoustics Kara, so it's a slightly different scale! But it does make a difference knowing.

 

On the Meyer front, we use UPA when we do The Grand in Leeds. It does the job and certainly projects to the back nicely, but I've been reading the comments above with interest and am starting to breathe a sigh of relief that it's not just us who find them a little harsh, especially for doing musical theatre. Short of hanging line arrays though, they're probably the best we can do. It's a funny old theatre for sound!