Choosing a new mixing desk

[sturgjoh]

Ok Folks - a quick poll for you. As an avid reader of this forum I hope this would be a good discussion. Thanks in advance for getting involved. Sorry it 's a massive post!

 

The problem:

I look after the sound equipment in our church, where we have an old Spirit Live 3/2 24 channel desk that needs replacing. We have a budget of £1000 - £1500 to spend and want to make sure we make the right decision for the future. I am currently the only one in our congregation with any interest/technical knowledge of the system, and practically wired the whole system over the years. We have a good set of musicians and some good quality equipment. We have about 4 others that take it in turns to sit at the back, and mostly they know how to operate the faders and Start the CD to record the sermon - but not sure how much more they are willing or able to learn. Obviously I would love to invest in a lovely Roland M400 or something similar but I can't quite see others sharing my interest - so we are going to stick with an analogue desk for now I think.

 

 

Current input line up is as follows:

 

Desk CH. Function

1 Lecturn

2 Spare

3 Bass DI

4 Vox

5 Oboe Mic

6 Vox

7 Vox

8 Spare

9 Violin DI

10 Guitar DI

11 Vox

12 Keys DI

13 Overhead Mic

 

14 Spare

15 Tape/CD Playback L

16 Tape/CD Playback R

17 DVD/VCR PlaybackL

18 DVD/VCR PlaybackR

19 PC Playback L

20 PC Playback L

21 Radio Mic1 Lapel

22 Radio Mic2 Lapel

23 Radio Mic3 Lapel

24 Radio Mic4 Handheld

 

 

The outputs used are as follows:

 

Prefade

AUX1 - monitor mix

AUX2 - monitor mix

AUX3 - monitor mix

 

Postfade

AUX4 - Induction Loop

 

Record Out L/R- to Tascam CD recorder

Main L/R Out - Main Amplifier & Speakers

Mono Out - Feed to distrubition mixer for feed to Hall, Foyer & Creche

 

Note: We have 4 spare channels on the multicore which are currently unpatched to the desk as we don't have sufficient channels.

 

If we were to have a bigger desk, we could patch in the 4 spare channels on the multicore, provide a stereo input for the laptop connection at the front, and still have a few spare channels to play with in the future.

The more 'Dual stereo faders' the better, as we will have up to 4 stereo inputs that we would otherwise group as a left/right pair. (faders are prefered over stereo return channels as folk will find them easier to use).

 

 

Options, as I see it, are as follows (with more than 24 channels, 6 aux buses)

 

Mackie Onyx 32.4

Soundcraft LX7ii 32

Yamaha MGP32X

 

The question:

Which desk would you buy given the requirements and the budget?

Why would you choose this one over the the others?

Are there any other serious contenders for this purchase choice that I have missed?

 

 

Comments please if you are able.

Many thanks.

John.

 

[Oldradiohand]

If you can't stretch to a A&H then I'd plump for the Soundcraft - but only 'cos I've used them both before. The Mackies feel a bit cheap and I've only ever used the Yam digital desks.

[pisquee]

I'd beg you to stretch the budget, take the leap into digital with the Behringer X32. This puts you in a much better position long terms than an anologue desk in terms of upgrade option to digi multicores, personal monitor mixers for the band, direct memory card/pc recording (inc multitrack)

 

If you can't stretch the budget, or get a deal, (which would be a huge shame) then stick with A+H or Soundcraft Please.

 

As long as a digital desk is programmed up, then it should prove easier for less knowledgeable people to just walk up and operate if programmed well. Things can be preset. Different band line-ups/musicians can be saved. If someone messes about with all the setting, then can be reloaded a lot quicker than having to twiddle a few hundred knobs.

[gibbothegreat]

I would probably echo pisquee's advice as a first option, but if either budget or taste doesn't go that way, then - having recently researched a very similar choice - I'll throw a lesser known option into the mix, which is the Samson L3200. I recently had to source a 12 channel desk on a pretty tight budget and looked at all the usual suspects - and found that Samson's offering gave me far more bang for my buck at this price point.

 

For around £1,000 the L3200 will give you all this:

32 Input Channels (24 mono)

XLR Mic: 24 mono channels + 4 stereo channels

Frequency Response: 20Hz - 20kHz

4 Stereo Line Inputs

24 Inserts

Large Illuminated Mute Switches

Stereo inserts

4 Groups with inserts

3-Band EQ with sweepable mids

6 Aux sends

Dual DSP with 100 digital multi-effects

2 Stereo aux return

USB I/O (from aux sends or main mix)

Input gain trim on each channel

24 dB Low cut filter at 75Hz

100mm faders

PFL switches

AFL switches

Phantom power switch (+ 48V)

Mono Out & LPF with sub-woofer containing variable frequency control

2 x 12-segment LED level meter for Main L/R, PFL/AFL. Group 1-4

Talkback mic input

 

More details here

 

It's been rock solid, sounds absoutely fine, and gives an impression of being far better than one might have a right to expect for its price range. The only slight downside is the global phantom power switch, just means you have to be aware of not plugging any line source in on XLR... The competition is better at this range than at the 12-channel level I was looking at, and tbh you wouldn't do badly with any of your choices (although the Mackie seems to be quite a bit more expensive - not very different, in fact, to the X32...) but a quick search makes me think the Samson is generally a tad cheaper than either the LX7 or the Yamaha.

[pdherring]

Not sure why people on here are avoiding the Mackie, I own both the 24.4 and the 32.4 as well as a A&H GLD80, these are all in my hire stock and the mackie have been for a good couple of years. They are solid desks and the pre amps in them are beautiful, they do not feel cheap. Infact I would go as far as to say the opposite compared to some on the lower end A&H and Soundcrafts. They are fantastic for the money and in 2 years of owning one and 3 years of owning the other I have had to replace nothing on either. I have used the LX7 many times and agree this is also a great desk and have no complaints with it either, but I just thought someone should stand up for the mackie in this fight ;)

 

Bring on the negatives...... :)

[Matt Riley]

Personally if I were forced to buy analogue with your budget I would get hold of a good condition second hand analogue desk - desks like the A+H GL2400 can be had for significantly under your budget these days. If forced to buy new, I just checked on Thomann and a 24 channel GL 2400 still is only £1444. By using the 4 stereo channels you would free up loads of space to plug in those extra multicore channels, and still have some channels to spare!

 

Having said that, you'll be kicking yourself if you don't go digital at this point in time. One of your big concerns is that digital is less user friendly. While that used to be true, if set up correctly the new generation of live digital boards (including the X32 and the Si Expression and the Roland M200i, all of which come pretty close to your price point) make life easier for total novices. You can lock down all the stuff you don't want them to worry about, you can add in assertive parametric / graphic EQ over the system and the monitors to make it much harder for things to feedback, as well as compression to require less fader adjustments, and with the ipad control or personal monitor mixers for the musicians, they don't even need to worry about the monitor sends. In addition to this, the X32 even comes with a built in MP3 recorder, so that simplifies the system even more.

[S&L]

taking the original post to heart - having a musician or someone uninterested sitting a digital board is not a great idea - I saw this happen 2nd hand recently - an x32 install that I was hired in to mix on for the night but where ordinarily the performing musicians were left to deal with it on their own - you would be amazed how much trouble they got into and how quickly - some people really aren't wired up in the brain department - and I say this as a big fan of the x32 and it being one of the simplest digital desks to operate. unless they are given exact instructions on a laminated sheet as to how to boot up and unless they limit themselves to just pushing faders then you are heading for trouble. musicians seem to take much easier to analogue because most of them have some little analogue desk some place for playing in bars etc and they feel they know it - put simply - flashing lights and digital screen = scary to some.

if the soundcraft meets your channel count and aux count requirements you will be absolutely fine with an LX7 - reasonably well built and in that environment a more expensive analogue desk is unlikely to pay dividends. I would stay away from the behringer analogue if you have the money to live without - despite their 3 year warranty, they are looking in the other direction their xl series seem to be variable in reliability with the most common fault appearing to be main LR failure - I looked at them a little while ago with a view to buying and that's what my research threw up at any rate. I don't know anyone that will run up and say mackie are brilliant quality tho to be fair I haven't heard of many failures either. allen an heath's reputation goes before them - there has to be a reason engineers prefer them to the soundcraft (pre amps, build quality and feel?) but I'm not sure the extra cost is warranted here (maybe if you were moving it around more and professionals were using it?)

anyway that's my tuppenny worth.

[RichM]

If digital really isn't an option (I understand why, but it's a shame, it really is the way forward now), I'd also suggest looking at the second hard market. Everyone is dumping analogue consoles at the moment and you can get some absolute bargains.

[timtheenchanteruk]

not used the new Yamaha one, but its the new model of the old MG series, of which I do have and found to be good, been using it for a while with no issues, you could even save yourself an aux by using the stereo bus out (seperate to the L/R out) for the loop if it has the full mix.

The MG has 4 stereo channels on its 32 desk, leaving you with 24 mono/mic channels, the 4 stereo channels are on TRS jack only, no XLR option on them (2 of them have an RCA option too)

[Doug Siddons]

Just going to add A+H ZED 436 to the mix (no pun intended)

[soundiesam]

Id like to echo Doug with the option of an allen and heath ZED, Cheap, sounds nice, easy to get your head around, Readily available im about to install one in a church they love the idea that they free up an aux using the USB to record and also they can play back via the USB

sam

[djdavidp]

I can vouch for A&H Zed series. I have recently purchased a Zed24 for my Church, to replace a very ancient desk that was on its last legs. It is very easy to use (I have trained a couple of people up on it, although anyone who I haven't trained is dissuaded from operating). The old desk was abused by our previous operator (who didn't hear all the feedback and if he was away the baton was passed to someone who knew even less).

 

The Zed24 gives us plenty of channels to work with, is easy to use and with single fader stereo channels is a lot less cumbersome

 

Our only problem now is with all the new gear it is higlighting issues with the amp and speakers (they are placed in the wrong spot). We plan to refurbish soon so we will replace the rest of the system then

 

So I would say give all you volunteers some training.

[medina]

If you can stretch the budget a little there is a lovely secondhand Midas in the group 'National lighting and sound swap shop ' on Facebook. £1900

[mjriley]

Another shout for the Allen & Heath ZED series.

Installed several of the ZED 24 for lower budget systems.

Admittedly the ZED 24 is more prosumer, 3 band EQ, less Aux's, no groups etc. but is brilliant for the price.

However once you hit the ZED 420 it's a different game entirely, some of the nicest analogue consoles available and still reasonably priced.

I regularly mix on a ZED 428 and love it.

[sturgjoh]

Hi Guys,

 

First of all - many thanks for taking the time to reply to the post. All comments are appreciated. Sorry it's taken so long to reply - life has been hetic.

 

I won't reply to all but here are some comments:

 

taking the original post to heart - having a musician or someone uninterested sitting a digital board is not a great idea - I saw this happen 2nd hand recently - an x32 install that I was hired in to mix on for the night but where ordinarily the performing musicians were left to deal with it on their own - you would be amazed how much trouble they got into and how quickly - some people really aren't wired up in the brain department - and I say this as a big fan of the x32 and it being one of the simplest digital desks to operate. unless they are given exact instructions on a laminated sheet as to how to boot up and unless they limit themselves to just pushing faders then you are heading for trouble. musicians seem to take much easier to analogue because most of them have some little analogue desk some place for playing in bars etc and they feel they know it - put simply - flashing lights and digital screen = scary to some.

I think you've summed up the problem very well here with regard to the question of digital or not. We ahve some people that will run a mile if fronted with a digital desk.

 

 

Personally if I were forced to buy analogue with your budget I would get hold of a good condition second hand analogue desk - desks like the A+H GL2400 can be had for significantly under your budget these days. If forced to buy new, I just checked on Thomann and a 24 channel GL 2400 still is only £1444. By using the 4 stereo channels you would free up loads of space to plug in those extra multicore channels, and still have some channels to spare!

Yes - hadn't considered GL2400 as thought it would be too expensive. Does it really have 4 stereo channels? I only spotted two.

 

 

Having said that, you'll be kicking yourself if you don't go digital at this point in time. One of your big concerns is that digital is less user friendly. While that used to be true, if set up correctly the new generation of live digital boards (including the X32 and the Si Expression and the Roland M200i, all of which come pretty close to your price point) make life easier for total novices. You can lock down all the stuff you don't want them to worry about, you can add in assertive parametric / graphic EQ over the system and the monitors to make it much harder for things to feedback, as well as compression to require less fader adjustments, and with the ipad control or personal monitor mixers for the musicians, they don't even need to worry about the monitor sends. In addition to this, the X32 even comes with a built in MP3 recorder, so that simplifies the system even more.

I do understand that stuff can be setup for simple operation on the digital desk, but this assumes that I will be there to 'set it up' if another musician turns up or the band members change position, or someone wants to plug in an mp3 player, or something else changes. I'd love it if we could go digital, but fear the consequences - there is also the situaition of what happens when I am not there, when/if I evre move house or to another church... this would leave them very much stranded.

 

 

Just going to add A+H ZED 436 to the mix (no pun intended)

Good shout - I'd not spotted the ZED4xx series. Thanks.

 

 

So thanks all for your comments, and perhaps what I need to do now is get along to see a couple of the desks at a local supplier and get some quotes.

I think I'm leaning towards either the LX7ii32 or the ZED428.

 

The quest continues...