Passive or active compact system

[Boltonguy]

Hi guys. Hope all is well and you are busy busy on the circuit.

 

I'm a solo artist singing over backing tracks in pubs and clubs. Anything from 70s disco to modern pop.

 

I'm looking for a new rig and have narrowed it down to 2.

 

2 x Yamaha dxr8s with a dxs12 sub with a Allen & Heath zed10fx

 

Or

 

2 x ev zx5 with a dynacord 600 mk3 desk

 

Priorities are ease of set up with the best sound to cover between 50 and 300 people.

 

Has anyone had any experience with these set ups? And any comments on which would be the best system (dynamic range and sound quality)

 

I am edging towards the passive system as it means not having to find power supplies near each speaker. Plus, I can walk into venues where space to set up is rather restricted and I am playing close to the audience.

 

All comments greatly appreciated.

[TonyMitchell]

By "passive or active", I assume from the context of your post, you mean "powered or unpowered".

 

But - is there any reason you have narrowed your choice down to these two systems?

 

The Dynacord Powermate 600 III is a poor match for the EV ZX5 cabs (it is grossly underpowered - providing 2x450w @ 8r into cabs rated 600w/8r - where you really want to give them upwards of 900w to make them sing.)

 

I'm never been a fan of 15" boxes for this application, a smaller LF driver will give more pleasing result on vox. Traditionally I would have always reached for a 12"+CD box, although having been using E8 extensively for a few months now, would not discount the smaller LF driver with a sub. You can run the ZX5 active, this would probably clean things up a little, but the money you'd spend on the extra amp channels, processing & 4ch. cabling would probably be better spent elsewhere.

 

On paper, the Yamaha option isn't such a bad idea. As a self-powered system, you haven't got to worry about matching amps to cabs and the separate sub will come into its own when your audience numbers are toward the larger of the numbers you have indicated. There will be others better qualified to comment further on this option - I don't have any experience in using powered cabs as have always avoided them for a number of reasons. But that doesn't mean they're not right for what you want to do.

[mackerr]

The Dynacord Powermate 600 III is a poor match for the EV ZX5 cabs (it is grossly underpowered - providing 2x450w @ 8r into cabs rated 600w/8r - where you really want to give them upwards of 900w to make them sing.)

 

Wow, the difference between 450W and 600W is less than 1.5dB. Push the main fader on your console up 1.5dB and let us know what a gross difference it makes. Try 3dB, the difference between 450W and 900W. Was that a "gross" difference?

 

I don't think so.

 

Mac

[TonyMitchell]

The Dynacord Powermate 600 III is a poor match for the EV ZX5 cabs (it is grossly underpowered - providing 2x450w @ 8r into cabs rated 600w/8r - where you really want to give them upwards of 900w to make them sing.)

 

Wow, the difference between 450W and 600W is less than 1.5dB. Push the main fader on your console up 1.5dB and let us know what a gross difference it makes. Try 3dB, the difference between 450W and 900W. Was that a "gross" difference?

 

I don't think so.

 

Mac

 

The amplifier is rated 450w/ch, the cabs want 900w-1,200w/ch. The 600w figure is largely irrelevant therefore yes, it is grossly underpowered in my book, increasing the probability of him pushing the system hard, clipping the amplifier and killing his drivers.... particularly as we're talking about a one man band performer whom I doubt will have his eye on the sound system throughout his sets.

[mackerr]

The amplifier is rated 450w/ch, the cabs want 900w-1,200w/ch. The 600w figure is largely irrelevant therefore yes, it is grossly underpowered in my book, increasing the probability of him pushing the system hard, clipping the amplifier and killing his drivers.... particularly as we're talking about a one man band performer whom I doubt will have his eye on the sound system throughout his sets.

 

Even 900 watts, is only 3dB above 450 watts. 3dB is about the minimum level change most people can hear. Really, try it out on your own system. Not every system needs to be run WFO all the time. My issue is with the term "grossly underpowered", I will grant it is slightly under powered, or, could handle a little more power if run hard. Stop thinking in terms of watts and start thinking in terms of dB. Watts ratings are about marketing.

 

Mac

[TonyMitchell]

The amplifier is rated 450w/ch, the cabs want 900w-1,200w/ch. The 600w figure is largely irrelevant therefore yes, it is grossly underpowered in my book, increasing the probability of him pushing the system hard, clipping the amplifier and killing his drivers.... particularly as we're talking about a one man band performer whom I doubt will have his eye on the sound system throughout his sets.

 

Even 900 watts, is only 3dB above 450 watts. 3dB is about the minimum level change most people can hear. Really, try it out on your own system. Not every system needs to be run WFO all the time. My issue is with the term "grossly underpowered", I will grant it is slightly under powered, or, could handle a little more power if run hard. Stop thinking in terms of watts and start thinking in terms of dB. Watts ratings are about marketing.

 

Mac

 

 

Mac

 

You're missing my point. If you read a few of my posts, you will note I have for a long time been trying to educate the same message as you have made regarding efficiency (dB) rather than watts. Watts are only relevant to me when speccing gensets and calculating load balancing. Our loudspeaker inventory is exclusively d&b audiotechnik, efficiency being one of the key reasons for that decision.

 

However, looking at the OP's circumstances, which is all that is really relevant here - the guy is a one man band stage performer, that (with respect) probably DOESN'T understand watts, dB, efficiency, ohms, etc. etc.... but he's probably a bloody good entertainer.

 

My comments are based on what I've seen/heard time and time again over the years, where performers carrying their own portable systems (without the luxury of a technician) push an underpowered system in the heat of the adrenaline-fuelled moment and cause costly damage to drivers and cut their performance short. When this happens, they are not thinking "that will give me a barely audible extra 3dB", they are simply turning everything further to the right, in an attempt to squeeze some extra volume out of what they've got!

 

I doubt the OP's circumstances are a consideration in your job, appreciating the scale of systems you are mixing on, and your highly respected experience and knowledge of the related physics. Also for those of us lower down the foodchain, but with a good understanding of gain structure, headroom, etc.. mixing on or babysitting systems where we know how far we can push and when to stop.

 

 

Tony

[Boltonguy]

Thanks for your replies so far. I am quite knowledgable in terms of SPL's , ohms, efficiency of drivers etc. I used to be in a function band touring the uk and did the pa for that. I understand that the dynacord desk is rather underpowered at 8 ohms but I am not in a position to get a costly, heavy amp delivering 1200 watts at 8 ohms. I've just heard raving reviews on the sound and frequency response of the zx5 and I've heard the dynacord desk in person through some zx4's. That's another option as they are rated at 400 watts at 8 ohms. I just prefer the cleaner look of the zx5's.

 

In respect of using a 12 inch driver, I currently use a pair of QSC K12's. Just not that keen on the throw of these speakers. I'm assuming this is due to the 75 degree conical dispersion? The standard 90 by 50 angle seems more appropriate for me as I can be close to the audience at times.

[GDJ]

1342357142[/url]' post='446317']

Thanks for your replies so far. I am quite knowledgable in terms of SPL's , ohms, efficiency of drivers etc. I used to be in a function band touring the uk and did the pa for that. I understand that the dynacord desk is rather underpowered at 8 ohms but I am not in a position to get a costly, heavy amp delivering 1200 watts at 8 ohms. I've just heard raving reviews on the sound and frequency response of the zx5 and I've heard the dynacord desk in person through some zx4's. That's another option as they are rated at 400 watts at 8 ohms. I just prefer the cleaner look of the zx5's.

 

In respect of using a 12 inch driver, I currently use a pair of QSC K12's. Just not that keen on the throw of these speakers. I'm assuming this is due to the 75 degree conical dispersion? The standard 90 by 50 angle seems more appropriate for me as I can be close to the audience at times.

 

 

The technical discussion is very interesting, but returning to the original question it seems the obvious answerto obtain good coverage ,ease of set up etc.would be an active powered sub system with satellitespeakers This would give decent bass for backing tracks and improve vocal clarity ,depending on budgetLD DAVE,DB TECHNOLOGIES or if you can afford it HK AUDIO do excellent systems for use with a non powered mixer.A plug for the mixer another for the sub and your in buisness,plus sats normally have angled tops forspeaker direction

[Boltonguy]

Cheers guys. Gonna try out 3 options now.

 

Passive

2 x dynacord d8 and 2 x dynacord 112 subs with a powermate 600 mk 3

Or

2 x zx5's

 

Active

2 x fbt promaxx 14a