budget mics for drum kit overheads - part 2

[S&L]

following my original post http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?showtopic=49992&st=0&p=415288&fromsearch=1&&do=findComment&comment=415288

I picked up a pair of behringer C4 condenser mics, mainly because the Pulse condensers were out of stock. I have used these for a couple of gigs now, once on a normal setting and once on the minus 10db setting, just to see the difference. Regardless of setting these mics seem very lively - in both cases I have to set the gain on the desk down to virtually nil to get a reasonable level on the desk. I have no experience with phantom powered condenser mics - would this be considered normal?

working in bars (both nights) and with the mics too far away from from the skins for my taste (nearly 2ft because the drummer couldn't cope with them closer) the sound was twoo reverberant and while I only needed the level low on the desk there was no 'comfort zone' to lift the mics without feedback from the main PA speakers a good 6ft in front - and no drums in the monitors. I can only assume this is interaction between drum mic and vocal mics.

I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts to share on getting better results on confined bar stages.

[Kevin Ross]

Personally for my tastes when I’m engineering a typical rocktype gig I hardly ever use overheads unless I’m in a bigger venue. I prefer thetighter sound of close miced and gated drums that are nice and punchy.

 

One of the reasons is the front line vocal mics tend to bequite close to the drum kit and have a fair amount of gain on them to get levelon vocals. As a result if you solo up that channel you will hear quite a lot ofthe drum kit anyway.

 

Another thing I like to do is to delay all the backline micsby different amounts to line up the actual sound from the kit/amp with thesound coming out of the PA. In small gig type situations where you are gettinga blend of between 30%-80% of the sound from the PA it can make a massive differenceto the overall sound. Its something that you just have to play with to getright but worth it if you have a digital desk and can play

 

 

[RichM]

If it's a small bar stage then I wouldn't use overheads, they're very rarely needed.

 

 

Start with kick, snare and hats see how that sounds.

[jamesperrett]

 

working in bars (both nights) and with the mics too far away from from the skins for my taste (nearly 2ft because the drummer couldn't cope with them closer)

 

2ft is much too close for overheads - they're normally more like 4-6ft away from the drums. What are you actually trying to use these mics for? I'm wondering whether the D606's mounted close to the drums would be more appropriate.

 

James.

[Doug Siddons]

With regards to gain on condensors I nearly always find myself padding them on the desk to give that extra bit of control. Also Hi pass them!

[S&L]

Interesting replies guys thanks.

 

Kevin – re close mic’ing – I must admit that would be myinstinct but that wasn’t the brief, see original post. In fairness the brief issort of working – they have two overheads that they can buy or replicate andthey do lift the drum sound above what was previously there and bring themclose to the right mix level.

 

Re – gated drums –beyond the budget and I haven’t seen thisdone in bars where analogue desks fight for space at a bar table with puntersbut since a behringer multigate isn’t ridiculously expensive it’s something I couldconsider if another band wants to go that far.

 

Re- delays and digital desks – well beyond any budget I havethus far seen for a pub band. To be fair, I did actually see a professionalhire company come into a bar to engineer for a band last week and for the firsttime I saw a digital desk in a bar. I got chatting between sets to the singer. Sadlyafter 3 weeks of solid rehearsing for their gig the musicians were left withless than ten pounds each after paying the professional company fees(reasonable fees I may add). Digital desksand delays are unfortunately a pipe dream in this world – see original post.

 

RichM – re mic’ing bass drum and snare – this comment wouldperhaps have been more useful for the original post. I (and I guess most peopleinvolved with pub bands) always mic the bass drum. Mic’ing the snare ISsomething I have done in the past. In these particular bars the pop/rock (notheavy) band were experiencing a lack of penetration in the mix for drums

 

James – re distance of overheads – maybe I have been usingstudio technique too literally. Part of the problem is that I don’t have theluxury at the moment of trying different set ups. I get a half hour or so toset up, five minutes to sound check and then we go with what we have. Notreally ideal. 4ft away would, I would think, pick up too much of the rest ofthe backline.

 

Purpose of the mics? – as previous post and above, I’mtrying to get the drums to penetrate through the mix without being lost. There area couple of different drummers that sit in the seat for this band and in bothcases their emphasis is on good technique not hard hitting and the drums sounda little loss, tho less so now with the overheads.

 

D606’s seem sensible though it would mean revisiting thebrief with the band and a larger multicore. Ironically for a sound guy, I amtrying to keep mics on stage to a minimum – less mics. Less leakage andfeedback. Never the less I may have to sneak in a D606 in the new year.

 

Doug – padding – luckily the desk I am working (peavey 2318)has 2 channels with pads. I have never padded anything but now may be a goodtime to try – naivety but it hadn’t even occurred to me to try. The next time Iwork with this band will be NYE so I will try that then.

 

Thanks for your input guys.

 

 

[Bobbsy]

One other thought: exactly how are the mics positioned and aimed? Consider the shape of the pattern on a cardioid. Although for recording, I generally place overheads over the drummer's shoulders aimed slightly forward but this is exactly wrong for live miking in close quarters. If you can get the mics in front of the drums angled back, the null to the rear of the mic will help reject other sounds.

 

As for the issue of whether to mic drums in a small venue, I have mixed feelings. If the drummer is loud it's often not necessary at all but, at other times, a small amount of overhead and some bass drum can add just a bit of fullness to the sound without appreciably raising the overall SPL. The need (or lack of need) varies with circumstances.

[Kevin Ross]

One technique I saw once and have since copied is the “under-head”. The way this works is you use 3 mics on the kit. One in the kick drum and theother two like this

 

 

 

First mic on a short boom stand under the high hats betweenthe snare and kick pointing straight up to start with (tweak to taste)

 

 

 

Second mic can be more tricky to place and I vary itdepending on the layout of the kit but it tends to go either about 1’ over thefloor tom pointing towards the ride or over the rack toms pointing away from thehats.

 

 

 

I decide this based on what needs making louder on the kitso if the drummer has a big china that he just loves to crash and ride on then Iwill keep the mic away from that or point the null of the mic there.

 

 

 

This tends to be my go to setup on events where the kitmight change or if I have limited channels but given the choice I prefer closemicing the drums as I said before

 

 

[gilkinted]

I use the two electrets from an inexpensive Superlux DRKA3C2 drum mic kit - found them to be excellent, much better than Behringer species. I set them approx 4' - 5' high from the stand base, panned approx 80% L/R. Don't expect them to do anything but project cymbals in general unless you push the gain in which case it is sometimes not neccessary to mic the snare.

p.s. - I always listen to how hard the drummer hits the snare and how loud it is before deciding to mic it up!

 

[jamesperrett]

 

D606’s seem sensible though it would mean revisiting thebrief with the band and a larger multicore.

 

I'm thinking that you could use the Pulse D606's instead of the condenser mics as they'll give less of the cymbals and more of the tom sound. I'd maybe place one between the rack toms and the floor tom and another between the rack toms and the snare. Short mic stands are very useful in this situation as they can often be hidden in between the cymbal stands. Or, possibly, you could clip the 606's onto the cymbal stands if they're in the right position as you would really want them below the level of the cymbals.

 

James.

[S&L]

thanks guys - the mic positioning info is helpful and hopefully I can try some positions out with the band concerned. at the moment the mics are positioned as bobbsy describes for live work. over, down and tilted at an angle towards skins (15 to 30 degrees from the vertical) one pointed towards floor tom and rack tom, other towards snare, high hat and rack tom. I would love to try the under approach but I need to get enough time at a sound check to be able to move stands, mics et al - I will have a play in my rehearsal unit with my kit there and see if I can approximate the situation