S&L Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I was mixing in bars with a band over the weekend and this particular band have lots of kit on stage, meaning that vocal and guitar mic's, pa speakers, monitors etc are all in very close proximity. one guitarist has a vox amp with a direct out which I can take directly to the desk and gives a very serviceable sound - probably at least as good as mic'ing the amp, if not better. meanwhile I am mic'ing the other guitarists amp (he doubles up guitar and keyboards) and im not really happy with what I was getting - so tight a space means I get a lot of cross contamination from other stuff on stage and I fight feedback - I got a sound this weekend but I would have been happier with more head room and less contamination - now accepting that such tight stages and low budgets are never going to create great results I was wondering what tips others here could offer about: 1. cheap ways to send a direct out to a desk from an amp that doesn't have a direct out. .. I guess we are talking about cheap serviceable 2nd hand pre amps2. ways to cut down on cross contamination and limit the range of a mic while getting good results at the mic. I'm thinking of swapping the SM mic for a D191 that I have laying around to see what happens but any other practical and cheap ideas welcome. I have to stress the situation isn't bad - just niggling and I'm looking for low tech or low cost ways to improve the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brainwave-generator Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I was mixing in bars with a band over the weekend and this particular band have lots of kit on stage, meaning that vocal and guitar mic's, pa speakers, monitors etc are all in very close proximity. one guitarist has a vox amp with a direct out which I can take directly to the desk and gives a very serviceable sound - probably at least as good as mic'ing the amp, if not better. meanwhile I am mic'ing the other guitarists amp (he doubles up guitar and keyboards) and im not really happy with what I was getting - so tight a space means I get a lot of cross contamination from other stuff on stage and I fight feedback - I got a sound this weekend but I would have been happier with more head room and less contamination - now accepting that such tight stages and low budgets are never going to create great results I was wondering what tips others here could offer about: 1. cheap ways to send a direct out to a desk from an amp that doesn't have a direct out. .. I guess we are talking about cheap serviceable 2nd hand pre amps2. ways to cut down on cross contamination and limit the range of a mic while getting good results at the mic. I'm thinking of swapping the SM mic for a D191 that I have laying around to see what happens but any other practical and cheap ideas welcome. I have to stress the situation isn't bad - just niggling and I'm looking for low tech or low cost ways to improve the situation. There are a couple of perfectly workable options...1) Use a DI box with a speaker emulation. These are basically DI boxes that smooth out the HF frequencies as a speaker would do, and sometimes add a slightly more 'boxy' mid range. This is because DI boxes alone from guitars, with anything except uber clean sounds, generally sound a bit dump. One of these boxes won't cost you any more than a regular DI, the Behringer Ultra-DI (the red one, not the silver one) sounds fine and would do the trick. For the best sound, put the DI box in the FX loop - FX Send to the input, FX return to the output. That way, you will capture any on-board tone from the amp's pre-amp. Putting the DI box before the amp won't do this, so if the guitarist is using built-in overdrive, you won't get it to the PA.2) Use a modeller like a Line6. POD XTs are now quite cheap due to the new PODs being around for a long time, but the POD XT is still a great sounding unit. I used to tour with a band whose sound was Guitars-POD XT-Power Amp-Speaker and they sounded great. All the gear heads said "no it'll sound so sterile and rubbish", guess what, with empty Marshall heads (buying broken Marshall heads, stripping out all the electronics to cut down weight) on stage they were all convinced it was the real thing. If you're playing mainly small stages, I would strongly think about convincing the band to moving to PODs rather than guitar amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whisky-zulu Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Di boxes in this situation can be your friend - the Stuidspares ones are good at £21 exc VAT. Just use the link out to go to the Amp from the Di, and take the source into the Di from their pedal board. In terms of mics, ones with narrower pick-up patterns would help to a degree, but again you also need to look at the placement of the mics in relation to the monitors as that can have a huge impact on how much headroom you can get before things start squealing at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 There are various DI boxes which are meant to do this job, like this, this or this. Whether any of then will sound right for your band, I can't tell you, but the last one (which I've never used) looks as if you have quite a few options to choose from. E2A I do wonder though, how you're micing the cab. I can't think of many times when I've worried about bleed into a guitar cab mic - it's usually the guitar that gets into everything else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidRay Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 The problem with using DI boxes this way is that you don't get the actual sound of the guitar amp, and if the guitarist switches between clean and driven sounds on the guitar amp, you won't get this on the DI box. If the amp has an extension speaker output you could utilise this through a suitable DI box. Alternatively if there is a pre-amp out or effects loop on the amp you could use this into a DI box (you'll need to return the signal to the amp so will need a DI box with a suitable output).It did occur to me that if none of these is available and the speaker on the amp is exposed you could make up a lead to connect the speaker terminals directly to a suitable DI box, not sure how advisable this is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Edwards Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 If the guitar amps do have DI after the amp with all it's bell and whistles, you could try DI AND mic. You'd be still getting some of the timbre from the cab but wouldn't need to push it as hard by bolstering it out with DI. This is a common technique for bass. As mentioned you should also experiment with positioning, not only thinking about mic placement but also the relative positions of all the band and their various noisy bits (e.g. move the amp further away from the kit or changing the angle). It's hard with confined spaces. When I was doing pubs we sometimes only had vocals through the PA or other times added some of the kit if necessary. The band knew what to compensate for when changing sounds etc. when it came to all the other instruments. We also had an amazing drummer who could, and more importantly would, play quieter if necessary meaning we didn't have to push everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I was mixing in bars with a band over the weekend and this particular band have lots of kit on stage, meaning that vocal and guitar mic's, pa speakers, monitors etc are all in very close proximity. one guitarist has a vox amp with a direct out which I can take directly to the desk and gives a very serviceable sound - probably at least as good as mic'ing the amp, if not better. meanwhile I am mic'ing the other guitarists amp (he doubles up guitar and keyboards) and im not really happy with what I was getting - so tight a space means I get a lot of cross contamination from other stuff on stage and I fight feedback - I got a sound this weekend but I would have been happier with more head room and less contamination - now accepting that such tight stages and low budgets are never going to create great results I was wondering what tips others here could offer about: 1. cheap ways to send a direct out to a desk from an amp that doesn't have a direct out. .. I guess we are talking about cheap serviceable 2nd hand pre amps2. ways to cut down on cross contamination and limit the range of a mic while getting good results at the mic. I'm thinking of swapping the SM mic for a D191 that I have laying around to see what happens but any other practical and cheap ideas welcome. I have to stress the situation isn't bad - just niggling and I'm looking for low tech or low cost ways to improve the situation. On stage cross-talk - I never fail to be amused with the unintended level coming into all stage mics, but it's pretty much a fact of life with a rock band, against which you can help, but certainly never avoid. In a bar situation, however, I'd be putting the bare minimum through the PA - just vocals, keyboard and kick. Anything that is being run through its own amp on stage is very unlikely to need any more re-inforcement. The only exception would be if you had *very* disciplined musicians who play at a very controlled lever - but I doubt that's the case. Over-micing in such a small venue tends to be counter productive, as well as more hassle. Ask yourself a simple question - did you find you needed to turn the guitar/bass up at any point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave SA Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 What style of music are we talking about here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKev Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 . . . . . I get a lot of cross contamination from other stuff on stage and I fight feedback - I got a sound this weekend but I would have been happier with more head room and less contamination - now accepting that such tight stages and low budgets are never going to create great results I was wondering what tips others here could offer about: 1. cheap ways to send a direct out to a desk from an amp that doesn't have a direct out. .. I guess we are talking about cheap serviceable 2nd hand pre amps2. ways to cut down on cross contamination and limit the range of a mic while getting good results at the mic. I'm thinking of swapping the SM mic for a D191 that I have laying around to see what happens but any other practical and cheap ideas welcome. I have to stress the situation isn't bad - just niggling and I'm looking for low tech or low cost ways to improve the situation. The feedback and cross contamination can be got rid of by turning up the amplifier a bit, hence turning the gain down on the mic and therefore more headroom before feedback from where ever thats coming from aswell. As long as he doesn't turn it up to a level where it is becoming intrusive on stage or out front. In all cases the source of the sound has to be loud enough to be mic'd in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S&L Posted August 2, 2011 Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 Thanks guys, a lot of useful stuff here, Taking each one in turn: DI box with speaker emulation via fx loop – that’s EXACTLYthe cheap solution I was looking for and my hunch is it would work perfectly. Thanksbrainwave! POD XT – nice idea but I would be looking for the band tobring that sort of thing with them – it’s worth throwing a red DI box in my kitthough for those occasions where it’s necessary. Mark - Reason for the bleed through I think because thekeyboard only monitor (theirs not mine) and guitar amp are next to each otherand the nearest backing vocal mic was 3ft from that and nearest PA cab 3ft fromthat. And yes I know distance would have helped. It would also help ifmusicians turned up early or at least on time and I could spend time looking atwhere they put their gear but that’s another story! The idea of DI plus mic is intriguing and something I mayput away in my pocket for a larger stage on another day. Here the 2ndguitar that caused the problems only appears for 4 or 5 numbers and tends to bebackground rhythm – think crowded house, weather with you. As long as the soundis reasonable, present and feedback free then it will do here! Re positioning – really do wish that was an option but in astage 8ft x 6ft with 2 keyboards, drums, 3 backing vocals, 4(!) guitars, bassand 5 musicians there isn’t a great deal of space! Pubs and whether to use the PA. this band interchange staffand depending on who turns up then less gets put through the PA but the keysalways go through the PA as does bass drum and 3 vocals. The lead guitarist on Saturdaywas using a vox pathfinder 15 which connects direct to desk and would nevercompete with the rest otherwise. The 2nd guitarist was using an evensmaller amp! (Another vox but without a direct output). The venue on Saturday wasa 300 plus capacity (probably less than 200 there on the night) and it’s a longway to the front of the pub from the stage at the back. Whether with front ofhouse desk or a self mix on stage most of the bands playing these venues arerunning most items through the PA – I usually leave off the bass and only micthe bass drum on the kit though more volume on the kit may have helped on Saturday.Putting most thingds through the PA is about trying to get a more controlledpolished product and being able to fly keys, guitars and vocals in at the rightmoment and sit them back in the mix at others, along with switching out micsnot in use. These are (in the main) good musicians just with more complexrequirements – if I do a two guitar rock band the mix and the desk is a lotmore simple. So in answer to the question do I need to turn the guitar upat any point with this band – in any given song it’s level will vary 2 or 3times, background, prominent and solo. Same for keys. Meanwhile vocal levelschange from song to song too, matching two vocals on one song, putting leadsinger out front on another, changing who sings lead on another etc. Regarding type of music http://www.saraban.co.uk/has some samples of the band in question (not my recording) the band is as perthe samples and list but now without acoustic guitar but with more dynamicmixing and a little more umph! Big Kev is right about the volume levels – I haven’t hadthis problem mic’ing a straight out rock band but while working with small ampsit’s probably going to work for me to DI with a red box. Thanks for all your input guys, really thought provoking andfilling another hole in my knowledge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peza2010 Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 If the amp has an extension speaker output you could utilise this through a suitable DI box. Isn't the extension speaker out a powered signal? And thus wouldn't be a good idea to feed into a di? Line out yes, extension speaker out no.Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefez Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Isn't the extension speaker out a powered signal? And thus wouldn't be a good idea to feed into a di? That would depend on the attenuation you have available on the DI. Some have just a single pad, while others have multple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Edwards Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 You could also stick a graphic on those problematic instruments or if you can stretch to it, a parametric. You could switch it in only when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whisky-zulu Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 The idea of DI plus mic is intriguing and something I mayput away in my pocket for a larger stage on another day. Here the 2ndguitar that caused the problems only appears for 4 or 5 numbers and tends to bebackground rhythm – think crowded house, weather with you. As long as the soundis reasonable, present and feedback free then it will do here! Although you may not be in the frame set, it may be worth taking a gander at the threads on here about some of the bigger festivals and the festival patches where micing and di-ing a guitar cab isn't at all unusal - plenty of ideas can be gleaned from those threads too. Here's one we made earlier :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 There are quite a few DI boxes that can be directly connected to the loudspeakers - even Behringer make them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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