fx send, return and panning strategies

[S&L]

Peavey RQ2318

 

I have been playing with a new (to me) desk this week in the rehearsal unit and it has brought to light a few issues which I am green with – they may be desk issues but at the moment I am going with my naivety!.

 

Issue 1 – fx send and return. I have been trying to find the right ‘balance of reverb to send and return. I would be interested in the personal preferences of those more experienced than I. Prior to this desk I have left the master send and return on other desks in a pretty neutral position (usually straight up) and added more or less reverb to each channel on the channel sends. Yeah I know it’s the opposite way round in terms of desk wiring (adding more or less of each channel to the reverb) but the effect, at least in my head is that turning up the channel send increases the reverb to that channel. So on this desk leaving master send and return in neutral gives me too much gain on the reverb – or tends to. The master send is marked at -40 to +10db with neutral (straight up) being zero. The return is similarly marked and I am setting both at -6db to avoid gain and hiss. The net result is ok but I am wondering how others structure their send and return – leaving aside the option of using a separate channel for the return.

 

Issue 2 – panning channels with reverb. If I have a dry channel it pans perfectly left and right and one with a little reverb added will pan ok but if I add a fair bit of fx send to a channel to add reverb (say for a jazzy female vocal) then the pan is ineffective. What appears to be happening is that even a mono reverb comes back to the return bus as a stereo signal and thus with plenty of reverb (but not a daft amount) pan has no perceivable effect. Not a huge issue in itself but I do have a habit of panning backing vocals slightly as seen on stage and panning instruments the same way. It’s not a huge issue but I would be interested in the opinion of others since I haven’t spotted this inability to pan before.

 

 

[Bobbsy]

Well, I don't know the mixer you have (and I couldn't find a manual on a quick search) but I can offer a few guidelines.

 

When I'm using effects from a post fade aux (and that's effectively what an effects send is if your mixer is labelled that way) I control things by pre-setting the send pots (both the individual channels and the master send if there is one) like I would with any gain staging exercise. Most effects units have some from of LED to indicate signal present or clipping or whatever to allow you to do this at least roughly. I then run with the effects unit set to "full wet" and control the wet/dry balance purely on the effects return.

 

I should say that, if I have spare channels, I prefer to assign either a stereo input or pair of mono channels to this--but have also operated on an "effects return" knob when I have to. Either way, this makes controlling the wet/dry balance and overall level relatively easy.

 

As for panning, the pan on the main channel should still work as normal but, if you think about it, natural reverb would be non-directional anyway. It would sound very un-natural if both the voice and the echo for that voice came from the same place!

 

Bob

[S&L]

Well, I don't know the mixer you have (and I couldn't find a manual on a quick search)

- the manual isn't much help to be honest!

 

When I'm using effects from a post fade aux (and that's effectively what an effects send is if your mixer is labelled that way) I control things by pre-setting the send pots (both the individual channels and the master send if there is one) like I would with any gain staging exercise. Most effects units have some from of LED to indicate signal present or clipping or whatever to allow you to do this at least roughly. I then run with the effects unit set to "full wet" and control the wet/dry balance purely on the effects return.

- that's pretty much what I am doing

 

I should say that, if I have spare channels, I prefer to assign either a stereo input or pair of mono channels to this--but have also operated on an "effects return" knob when I have to. Either way, this makes controlling the wet/dry balance and overall level relatively easy.

- although I have worked this way I like the feel of 'set and forget' - I always worry that the fader will get nudged, whereas the return pot is out of the way, once set at sound check I rarely need to alter - infact I tend to find a lot of venues I am working in if I work with the same band again in another venue I rarely have to touch any of the fx settings. I also struggle to get the gain right working on a fader channel but I really should revisit this and try again!

 

As for panning, the pan on the main channel should still work as normal but, if you think about it, natural reverb would be non-directional anyway. It would sound very un-natural if both the voice and the echo for that voice came from the same place!

- I should have thought about it that way and to be honest hving mixed with the desk last week I doidnt notice the pannning issue - I only notice it when I am alone in the rehearsal unit with a cd on and testing - so I guess if I close my eyes when im mixing the band and it sounds right then I shouldn't be worrying so much how it gets there.

 

Bottom line I think I am finding the desk is nice in terms of resources and it suits that small live gig environment but I think a few items, faders, return pots etc are not linear and that may be highlighting what I hear. a decent desk for a live set up on a bargain budget but with limitations in quality

[Bobbsy]

 

- although I have worked this way I like the feel of 'set and forget' - I always worry that the fader will get nudged, whereas the return pot is out of the way, once set at sound check I rarely need to alter - infact I tend to find a lot of venues I am working in if I work with the same band again in another venue I rarely have to touch any of the fx settings. I also struggle to get the gain right working on a fader channel but I really should revisit this and try again!

 

 

I rarely find reverb to be a "set and forget" thing. I use the faders to "fly in" the effect as needed and frequently tweak the wet/dry balance through the song depending on what's being said by moving the faders in opposite directions--I also like the freedom to creep up the overall level by moving both faders at once.

[S&L]

I rarely find reverb to be a "set and forget" thing. I use the faders to "fly in" the effect as needed and frequently tweak the wet/dry balance through the song depending on what's being said by moving the faders in opposite directions--I also like the freedom to creep up the overall level by moving both faders at once.

 

- it would be useful to see if this is the 'norm' for others llike youself, more experienced than I. whether recording or live I have never altered the wet/dry mix through the song and though I will alter the reverberation time for the room at sound check if need be, on top of that I only ever tweek individual channel sends during sound check. I shall have to think about trying your approach and even if I don't it's incredibly useful to know how you and others achieve this. I CAN see the merit of using a channel so as to add a little reverb to the monitor mix but with the tight stages (for which read a corner of a bar..A raised platform is luxury!) I usually find it helpful to keep the monitors completely dry.

[MarkPAman]

I do what Bobbsy does! It's nice to be able to give a little more (or less) reverb for parts of the song & to turn it down / off

 

I agree though that reverb in the monitors is usually a bad thing.

[BigKev]

Issue 1: Using the post-fade Aux sends is the right way to go about it (as echoed by previous posters). However I like bringing FX back to channels instead of typical aux returns as you have the option of PFL and EQ's. As for monitors, dry mixes are best for monitors I find.

As for the issue of "too much gain on the reverb", I assume the symptom for this is that when the aux send on the channel is turned up just a wee bit the reverb unit is seeing far too strong a signal? If so then this can be made more efficient in a few ways, however, I (anybody) would need to know the model of the reverb unit to talk you through it as it depends a lot on what input/output controls are on it (if any).

 

As a matter of preference I tend to opt for a subtle reverb and set it up during soundcheck and leave it. however I like to use delays for live vocals, which are easier to control I find with the fader.

 

Issue 2: it is possible to get stereo fx returns (sensitive of pan) Its just not on your desk! I can think of one way of doing it but it would involve sacrificing two mono channels on the desk, and heavily dependant on your external fx unit again.

[S&L]

Issue 1: Using the post-fade Aux sends is the right way to go about it (as echoed by previous posters). However I like bringing FX back to channels instead of typical aux returns as you have the option of PFL and EQ's. As for monitors, dry mixes are best for monitors I find.

As for the issue of "too much gain on the reverb", I assume the symptom for this is that when the aux send on the channel is turned up just a wee bit the reverb unit is seeing far too strong a signal? If so then this can be made more efficient in a few ways, however, I (anybody) would need to know the model of the reverb unit to talk you through it as it depends a lot on what input/output controls are on it (if any).

 

As a matter of preference I tend to opt for a subtle reverb and set it up during soundcheck and leave it. however I like to use delays for live vocals, which are easier to control I find with the fader.

 

Issue 2: it is possible to get stereo fx returns (sensitive of pan) Its just not on your desk! I can think of one way of doing it but it would involve sacrificing two mono channels on the desk, and heavily dependant on your external fx unit again.

 

Kev,

I'm running an alesis midiverb 4 with a reverb program of my own assembly, basically a reverb with a slight gate and I roll up or down the reverb time dependant on singer/situation. I can look again at the gain on the reverb unit itself and see if rolling that down allows me to bring fx send and return back to unity or close but as set at present the gain on that signal path is much stronger than with otehr desks I have worked with soundcraft, behringer etc and so I am having to cu send and return by 6db to get decent levels - you really have made me think about going back the the gain within the alesis tho so I shall do that before saturday night's gig. at the moment I am running one send (mono) out of the desk to the alesis and one return though I have the option to run 2 channels through the alesis. what were you thinking about in terms of pan sensitivity?

[BigKev]

Aye, dropping the input level on the Alesis will enable you to have a higher output on the desk (which is better).

 

Its quite possible that the peavey desk has higher output levels than the other desks you have worked with, I haven't looked them up to clarify, but I have come accross similar issues in the past.

 

The ideal way of applying pan sensitive effects is through stereo group inserts (which the peavey doesn't have unfortunately). That is how you would also group compress, gate or add effects to a group of channels, in this case vocals. I use groups live but not for effects (or gating or compression for that matter) but I have seen many who do.

 

You could do it on your desk in a round about way. You could use both post-fade aux sends to the fx unit. that way you can control the balance of L/R send via the aux sends. This is not ideal in that you have to set it up by ear as to match the actual pan control on the vox channel (So maybe it is ideal!). but that involves using another aux which may be used for something else.

 

You need to ensure that the Alesis is set up correctly for a dual mono or true stereo effect reverb, or it may just sum the outputs. Then it will not work.