100v Retail System Nightmare! lol

[admdisco]

Alright guys,

 

1st thing I'd like to admit is that im not a pro retail/pa system installer. I have installed a couple of sound systems for local pubs, reguarly rent out my rig, been to uni etc. so im alright with sound reinforcement etc..

 

I got a phone call yesterday from a friend of mine who works for a property maintenance company, one of the retailers they look after has just had a break in. The thief took the ipod and leads from their backgound music system, he also tried to take the whole system (combined mixer amp) and from the look of it half the walls and cabling.

 

Some of the cabling is actually ripped apart and everything has been unplugged from the rear of the unit. The unit is a Integra MA6-120 100V line system. (made by 'Appplication Solutions in the UK) The date on the board says it was manufactured in 1999! ** laughs out loud **

 

I used to work at TK Maxx as a duty manager (fair few years ago, while at uni) and we had the exact same unit.

 

Well anyway, I managed to fathom out what wires where the output to the 100v line speakers and connect them to the phoenix style connector on the rear. All of the inputs are DIN connectors. Somehow the phone paging system is linked into this along with a cd player (through its only set of RCA phonos) and a DIN to phono adapter used to link the iPod into one of the inputs. There are dipswitches next to the inputs to assign channel prioroty (for pages) and chimes etc..

 

Heres the wierd bit. I could connect a signal generator to the input channels (apart from the phonos) and get an input status LED to acknowledge audio in. Although the gain is up and the master volume up the audio is not passing through the output and to the speakers.

 

I was able to get the unit to generate its internal chimes through the speakers prior to channel activiation but the audio on that channel would not pass through.

 

I took the unit out to get a local technician to look at it and hes found several components on the inside to have gone.

 

The wiring in the room is in a complete state, the din connectors coming into the room are almost untraceable as to what they are or where they go and there is a broken cable dangling from the ceiling (4 core with shield) that I think went to the control input of the box.

 

What I need at the moment is possibly a technical drawing/circuit diagram and maybe manual for the unit (Integra MA6-120) but can't source any of this information anywhere.

Or possibly a replacement mixer amplifier to get the system operational again with background music and telephone paging system.

 

I am slightly concerned about succesfully wiring up a replacment mixer amplifier to the telephone paging system as I am unsure exactly which broken lead it is coming into the room (and what to do with it, ** laughs out loud **)

 

Basically

All the wiring is in place from the speaker system and telephone system into the room (knowing whats what though isnt quite that simple (to me anyway) )

The mixer/amp is knackered

 

Surley this can't be that hard to fix?

 

any help appreciated, sorry if I haven't explained my predicament too well (and I havent checked the spelling, :D )

 

(anyone on here specialise in this sort of thing in the midlands area?)

[durian]

this requires professional help, do not go connecting up broken equipment and loose wiring.

 

you may live to regret it.

[Sound Man]

Is this the one? Some information on the specs available from here.

 

http://www.pecoltd.co.uk/PECO_Web/fb.gif

 

Have you tried emailing Application Solutions Ltd?

 

David

[admdisco]

Is this the one? Some information on the specs available from here.

 

 

 

Have you tried emailing Application Solutions Ltd?

 

David

 

This is all I could find too (picture & info wise). I have contacted ASL using their 'contact us' form on their other site. (forgot how I got onto it but there is an entry portal splitting off into there different sub-divisions, managed to find their site about PA gear and access control etc, differs to the ASL vision above). I have yet to receive a reply though. They list support documents for all their recent items but dont list any info on their older discontinued stock.

 

I also emailed PECO (their name is printed on the circuit board too along with on the link provided) but again have yet to receive a response.

 

I beleive I can sort it after having a think, if I can get another 120W 100V line amp with DIN inputs and priority selection I should just be able to connect the inputs up pretty much as they would have been and it should work, my only concern is the telephone paging system integration.

 

Been trying to find someone local who can come in an save the day for the maintenance contractor should all else fail, the only companies he can find are pricey looking national companies, theres gotta be someone more freelance in the birmingham area should it come to it

[TonyMitchell]

I got a phone call yesterday from a friend of mine who works for a property maintenance company, one of the retailers they look after has just had a break in.

Been trying to find someone local who can come in an save the day for the maintenance contractor should all else fail, the only companies he can find are pricey looking national companies,

 

 

 

Does the PA system actually come under the remit of the "property maintenace" contract with the retailer? It seems highly unusual, unless they operate a management service to co-ordinate contracts on behalf of the retailer . In either case, I would expect specific technical service contracts to exist with relevant suppliers/support companies expert in their field (eg: point of sale, refrigeration, PA system, security, etc.) The fact they've asked a mobile dj to try to sort it out seems somewhat Heath Robinson!

 

I'm also confused as to why the cost of the work is particularly relevant, as the scenario you've described will no doubt be one for the insurance company.

[S&L]

Been trying to find someone local who can come in an save the day for the maintenance contractor should all else fail, the only companies he can find are pricey looking national companies,

 

Does the PA system actually come under the remit of the "property maintenace" contract with the retailer?

 

it's failry common for a retailer or commercial entity to contract out to a facilities management company, particularly at the corperate level - basically a building contractor who specialises in maintenance packages. this has been common at the top end of the market for a long while, so much so that lots of small and mid level companies do the same thing now. how the contract works varies but the end result is usually the same - the FM contractor sub contracts to an electrical contractor who either looks fter the PA install or sub contracts to a specialist - the specialist being a building/construction soundinstall company - I should imagine most mid level electrical contractors would have someone regional that they could call on but would carcass wire themselves. expensive is a relative term but as specialists they tend to have more room for profit than the electrical contractors for whom they work. in most straighforward shop/department store installs the 'specialist would only ever usually install at the amplifier end and these days it's increasingly common to see the electrical contractors do this themselves. the work is usually neat, tidy, labelled and consistant with the rest of the electrical install but it's rare to see consideration given to tonal quality, a similar approach is taken for fire, security and data systems.

[Robin D]

Re: Phone paging system.

 

You need to find out what the telephone switch is to find out what service it outputs for paging as they differ, especially in the signalling. Many service manuals are available on-line. You may find they have support for the phone system that may help you.

 

The only way to be sure on what goes where is to trace back the cables.

[admdisco]

I got a phone call yesterday from a friend of mine who works for a property maintenance company, one of the retailers they look after has just had a break in.

Been trying to find someone local who can come in an save the day for the maintenance contractor should all else fail, the only companies he can find are pricey looking national companies,

 

 

 

Does the PA system actually come under the remit of the "property maintenace" contract with the retailer? It seems highly unusual, unless they operate a management service to co-ordinate contracts on behalf of the retailer . In either case, I would expect specific technical service contracts to exist with relevant suppliers/support companies expert in their field (eg: point of sale, refrigeration, PA system, security, etc.) The fact they've asked a mobile dj to try to sort it out seems somewhat Heath Robinson!

 

I'm also confused as to why the cost of the work is particularly relevant, as the scenario you've described will no doubt be one for the insurance company.

 

They operate a management service to co-ordinate contracts. They are fairly small scale and their policy is to provide local contractors to local retailers which is a policy that I support. The reason they contacted me is firstly as I said, a friend said that I was good at this sort of thing and to ask me to have a look, They did have a specialist who used to do it for them but retired a couple of years ago and moved away and have since been unable to find one locally and have usually got away with solving problems using their electrician. As I originally said, the electrician went out and couldn't work it out so requested a 'sound guy'.

 

With regards to the way you mention me being a Mobile DJ, I did clearly state my situation at the start of the thread and admit to being out of my depth. My Avatar & weblink are very old here. I have a BTEC National Cert and A BTEC National Diploma in Music Tech, also a BSc In Music Tech. I have enough work on now to be able to do this full time (self employed running an entertainment services company). I rent out high power RGB Laser systems (clients include HMV institute in Digbeth, Oceana Wolverhampton and several small scale 'rave' organisers), Small DMX Lighting Systems, PA Hire and I have so far completed two sound installs at a Refurbishedd Pub and Newly opened sports bar.

 

Yes I do provide mobile discos, this week I have four bookings accross three days. My discos are a far cry from the typical.

 

for anyone who is remotley interested:

Ultimax Trussing, Allen & Heath Mixer, Rack mount Denon Midi Controller with 24-bit 4 channel sound card, Denon CD Decks, Macbook Pro running Traktor Scratch Pro with an abundance of insert effects, Shermann Audio 5kW Rig, (Ashly Protea Crossover, Matrix Amp) Martin Scanners, 1.2W RGB laser, Discharge Moving Heads, RGB LED Bars, Pangolin control for the laser and freestyler control for the lighting (safety chains, PLI, PAT, ProDub).

 

We've all got to start somewhere and at 23 I don't think things are going that bad, main thing is I'm enjoying myself and have a passion for my work.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that I do have more of an understanding than the electrician they sent out (and I believe more of an underatdning than your 'typical' mobile DJ)

 

My name was put forward by a friend to 'Have a Look' before they have to splash out on a new national contractor.

 

(appreciate the view that I am far from the ideal 'contractor' as such and I have made sure the property company is aware of this)

 

 

Been trying to find someone local who can come in an save the day for the maintenance contractor should all else fail, the only companies he can find are pricey looking national companies,

 

Does the PA system actually come under the remit of the "property maintenace" contract with the retailer?

 

it's failry common for a retailer or commercial entity to contract out to a facilities management company, particularly at the corperate level - basically a building contractor who specialises in maintenance packages. this has been common at the top end of the market for a long while, so much so that lots of small and mid level companies do the same thing now. how the contract works varies but the end result is usually the same - the FM contractor sub contracts to an electrical contractor who either looks fter the PA install or sub contracts to a specialist - the specialist being a building/construction soundinstall company - I should imagine most mid level electrical contractors would have someone regional that they could call on but would carcass wire themselves. expensive is a relative term but as specialists they tend to have more room for profit than the electrical contractors for whom they work. in most straighforward shop/department store installs the 'specialist would only ever usually install at the amplifier end and these days it's increasingly common to see the electrical contractors do this themselves. the work is usually neat, tidy, labelled and consistant with the rest of the electrical install but it's rare to see consideration given to tonal quality, a similar approach is taken for fire, security and data systems.

 

As I said, this is the situation that they're in (and I'm in).

 

I have gone in to 'have a look', and granted, this is slightly unprofessional in terms of the service the manitenance contractor is providing. Anyway, being as I got the call I thought there was no harm in having a look as It could then be something else 'under my belt' if you will.

 

Plus the situation was described to me on the initail call something like this..

 

"a shop we look after has had a break in, someones nicked the iPod that was attached to their amp and ripped all the leads out the back, our electrician said an audio guy would be better so could you pop and have a look"

 

I was fully expecting a small shop, with a seperates style amp with some speaker leads and maybe phonos to plug in (or even to source) not a complex 100v Line Paging system, =D

 

Essentially though the principals are the same, I know that any replacement amp would need to really match the wattage (can't be less) due to the tapppings on the speakers. Surely even the paging system just sends an audio out that would be asssigned 'priority' so when theres a signal it drops the music out?

 

The cables are all still in the room with the din connectors floating about though not all attached, it would be fairly simple to join these back up but the only problem is the amp has been damaged and they don't make them anymore. An electronics engineer at my local sound sound shop (who I know very well) offered to repair it if I could get the drawings but I'm having no such look and they need this sorting ASAP.

 

Looking online the DIN connectors are old hat now, but some units still come with them, inc some Adastra ones. If I could get one with the same inputs surely it would be a case of just connecting it up? The rear of the current amp gives a wiring matrix for the din's to double check against any new amp.

 

 

 

Re: Phone paging system.

 

You need to find out what the telephone switch is to find out what service it outputs for paging as they differ, especially in the signalling. Many service manuals are available on-line. You may find they have support for the phone system that may help you.

 

The only way to be sure on what goes where is to trace back the cables.

 

Tracing back the cables in this location would be very hard, I am very appreciative of the telephone information idea you've suggested as this is my only concern really, wiring this into a new amp, in theory it can't be that hard because all the cabling is already in place.

 

If I can't do it, the property maintenance company has asked me to find someone local who could as I have more of an understanding of what is needed.

 

Does anyone here know of such a company that could help, even if it is a recommendation for one of the 'big guys'?

 

Thanks everyone for taking the time to read this, and many thanks for the replies,

 

All help and suggestions are greatly appreciated

[pumphouse]

Telephone systems normally interface to paging amps using an interface unit of some kind, which basically just acts and is connected to the phone system as an extension handset. When you 'ring' that entension the box answers the call and provides a closed relay contact and audio output to the amplifier. The relay contact activates that input on the amplifier (usually over-riding music sources, depending on priority settings) and the audio is passed through. When you hang up, the relay contact drops and the amp returns to normal. So on the existing cable I would expect to see a relay contact and a balanced audio line pair, which you maybe able to figure out with a multimeter and making some calls to the paging extension.

 

Without knowing about your phone system it's difficult to be specific but there's likely to be a box like this in the way somewhere. These will usually be connected to an analogue extension interface on the phone system. alternatively there may be a dedicated interface from your system's manufacturer if it is a digital PABX but I would expect the outputs to work the same way.

 

If you fancy re-wiring some DIN plugs (which is not fun) you may be able to use another manufacturer's amp as a replacement - you would be very lucky if the pinouts matched up.

 

Jason

[Sound Man]

Which part of the UK is the shop located?

 

Someone on here may be fairly local to go and have a look.

 

David

[admdisco]

Which part of the UK is the shop located?

 

Someone on here may be fairly local to go and have a look.

 

David

 

 

Tyseley Birmingham, I've just dropped the Amp/mixer off to another local electronics specialist to have a look at it.

 

 

If you fancy re-wiring some DIN plugs (which is not fun) you may be able to use another manufacturer's amp as a replacement - you would be very lucky if the pinouts matched up.

 

Jason

 

I did solder a couple up while I was there, didn't seem too different from kncoking up my own XLR & Jack Leads, Agreed its a bit of a fiddly bore though