How long before a Rider specify's 'No Analogue'?

[mrcog]

Pretty much as the title says... For years I'm sure we've all seen riders that specify 'No Digital' for the FOH and/or Monitor desk, however how long do you all think it will be before riders start specifying 'No Analogue'. With new engineers entering the industry, who have been brought up working with computers, I recon it will be maybe in the desk 5 years where riders will be speccing No Analogue desks. I have mixed with both analogue and digital consoles (albeit the M7CL and LS9, both designed to be 'Analogue Friendly') and personally I prefer them to an analogue desk due to the increased flexibility and smaller footprint.

 

Okay, I'm not going to lie, I am very new to the industry so I have no-where near the experience as many others working in this industry so I would actually be really interested in hearing many other people's opinions.

 

Also, working as casual crew, we are routinely seeing larger numbers of digital consoles coming through compared to the analogue equivilants. Almost all the FOH consoles are digital, with about half and half for monitors.

 

James

[Dave SA]

Personally, all my tech riders specify no digital, simply because they sound terrible and I find it really annoying to do simple things (that are so easy with an analogue board) like manually controlling delay effects (sending only certain words to the effects) as an INTEGRAL part of a performance. At least two of the bands I work with need this as part of the show. I've yet to find a digital desk that will allow me to do this whilst mixing the rest of the band at the same time. Perhaps I need 5 more years practice, but that's not really an acceptable option unfortunately, plus by then every digital desk manufacturer will have changed their mind on how to set out their consoles interfaces anyway.

 

I'll get slated for this, but I think digital desks are extremely lazy - at least in the world of live bands.

 

If a rider specifies no analogue then IMO they should bring their own plastic desk.

 

Oh and I'm no veteran at 25. Maybe in 5 years if digital desks step out of their terrible toddler stage then this question would be null and void, but for now I'm happy to attempt to avoid them at all costs. It's a funny thing that digital has been so widely accepted - another case of good marketing waving it's magic wand. All the console manufacturers will cash in when 2.0 comes around!

 

</rant>

[stevefez]

Personally, all my tech riders specify no digital, simply because they sound terrible and I find it really annoying to do simple things (that are so easy with an analogue board) like manually controlling delay effects I'll get slated for this, but I think digital desks are extremely lazy - at least in the world of live bands.

 

If a rider specifies no analogue then IMO they should bring their own plastic desk.

That's quite a statement to make. How many digital desks have you heard that sound terrible? Admittedly, some of the lower end one's haven't quite got a Midas sound, and there is a quite a debate about the Yamaha desks (mostly the preamps, see the other threads) but if you use, and only as an example, the Digico desks, you'll be blown away. They sound incredible. Different, maybe, but certainly the complete opposite of terrible! And as for ease of use... I mean, really? As with any desk, indeed anything new, you have to learn how to use it, but most are incredibly intuitive.

 

Back to the OP...

I haven't seen any riders that specify digital only, but have seen a fair amount that, within the short-list of required desks, only have digital listed. So perhaps it's well on its way already.

[Bobbsy]

If I moved in a world where I just had to walk up to a strange desk and mix with little setup time, I'd still rather do that on analogue. However, in any situation where I have the time to prepare and preset things (maybe with a memory stick or whatever) I'm sold on digital. Most of the problems DaveSA mentions with flying in effects etc. can be easily handled by user defined keys, memory presets or whatever.

 

As for the sound, I think DaveSA makes a sweeping and inaccurate generalisation. The best sounding console I know is a Midas Pro6 (and I'm comparing that to the Midas H2000 the local theatre replaced when they bought the Pro6. The only thing in the analogue domain that is in the same league are some of the Cadac mixers I've used--and you rarely see those for the live music scene. However, you don't need to buy Midas for a great sound: Digico, A&H, the Soundcraft Vi and Si series and even some Yamahas can sound very nice indeed--certainly as good as many analogue in the same price league (especially when you factor in the cost of outboard for the analogue).

 

As for the original question, likely Stevefez, I haven't seen the exact phrase "no analogue" but I certainly have seen riders that list a few acceptable digital mixers--and no analogue equivalents.

 

Bob

[Doug Siddons]

I think the original reason for "No Digital" was down to the fact that earlior desks were difficult to use due to each manufacturer putting their own swing on the way it was done which resulted in a nightmare for touring engineers trying to remember how to operate them. As digital has matured the desks have got easior/more obvious to use and most engineers approaching any digital desk can get to grips with it fairly quickly. with regards to sound quality, I think this battle will rage forever but not on the analogue versus digital front but on the brand x against brand y front as it always has.

 

Will analogue ever disappear, no, but purely on an economic basis I would expect that in the future as venues have the need to replace analogue desks at the end of their life, I would expect digital to become the norm.

[Wilflet]

Most of the problems DaveSA mentions with flying in effects etc. can be easily handled by user defined keys, memory presets or whatever.

 

Bob

 

I think this hints towards a reason why 'no analogue' is a while off. Each desk/series has its own quirks and ways of doing things.

I see quite a few overly optimistic riders, 'XL4 or heritage, no digital' in 300 capacity venues. The venue takes this to mean 'the best large format analogue board within a sensible budget for the size of show' they get a soundcraft or A&H and are happy. and on this size of show Id be happy with that substitution.

If that rider had read 'XL8 or Pro6, no analogue' the venue gives you a digital desk appropriate to the gig budget, you probably get a roland, maybe an ls9*.

Give me anything analogue without telling me in advance and I'll be fine, but whilst I do use a fair range of digital desks Iv never touched a roland.

Personally I would never put no analogue unless I thought Id be happy with every digital desk in existence.

 

*yes in an ideal world people meet your tech rider or let you know of any substitutions, but I see far too many shows where the advancing is ballsed up to want to risk the show on this

[BlueShift]

I like the sound of an XL4 as much as the next guy - but unless you can guarantee to get a product on that level, often specifying digital is a way to guarantee consistency. The fact is, a PM5D is a consistant product worldwide. Sure, some LEDs wont work, or a fader might be stuck, but all the internal components will sound the same unless its been completely thrashed. However, that is not the case with analogue... I recall having a Legend 3000 in Ghana which had so much dirt in the pots that I had to keep scrubbing the gain on some channels to get audio to pass.

In that situation, an M7 would have done nicely...

[adamski1010]

I prefer mixing on Analogue any day of the week, however more often than not, circumstances dictate that a digital console is more suitable. Many riders I see still say 'Analogue only, or No digital without a soundcheck.' I really dont believe that we're going to see Analogue die, as a format, for a long time yet.

Yes, digital is certainly closing the gap in terms of sound and ease of use (although in most cases, its still not quite there yet), however there are always going to be dyed in wool analogue supporters out there (me included) who will avoid digital consoles if possible.

I've been impressed by the Midas, Digico and Allen and Heath's Digital offerings however will always take an MH4, Heritage, XL4 and some decent outboard over any of them, its just down to the way I like to mix and what I'm most comfortable using.

 

 

Edit: Spelling