Help With Everything!

[paulfurze]

Hello Everybody,

 

Sorry for this being a bit long and even more sorry some of my questions are going to sound plain stupid but I gotta ask ;)

A modified 'for lighting version' of this is in the lighting section. Mr Admin, if that's wrong please let me know how to 'cross post it correctly'.

 

I've been asked by our local councillor to come up with specs / prices for a sound reinforcement and lighting system for our local town hall.

I've never had to spec out a full hall before and they've also asked to keep the price as low as possible (council eh!).

Thus, before I even start looking at kit specifics I really need some pointers in the right direction.

Please. if you can pass comment on here do so, all help really appreciated.

 

Ok the venue:

Has a good stage (proper slope on it as well)

Holds 210 downstairs and has a balcony that holds a further 60.

Its used for all sorts of functions from Folk to Rock and Theatrical shows and Dramas.

It also has another separate function room that holds 70.

 

 

Questions then are....

 

Digital or analogue for the desk?

Never used a digital desk but I believe that this'll reduce the cabling required to the stage.

(Currently there is no PA at all in the venue)

Digital desks can use things like Ethernet can't they?

We'd also need to run a separate monitor desk as well.

Does a monitor desk have to be the same size as the main desk?

Active or passive splitters? (or something more clever?)

Number of channels? I'm thinking 40ish? (There're going to want 10 or 12 for a radio mic system for shows) and that'd only leave 28 for other stuff.

 

For the function room I guess a simple 28 or 32 channel type analogue desk would do it.

 

Amps and Speakers.

Size wise I'm thinking per side a three way system? (1000W subs, 400W mids, 150W tops) and then say a 200W additional system for the balcony.

Active or passive?

 

For the function room I guess a 200W system would do it.

 

Foldback System.

Should I look at active or passives?

I guess the number of channels is governed by the size of the monitor desk?

 

Radio Mics.

Suggestions for these please as I've no idea on radio gear.

Would you put the recievers at the stage end or the FOH end?

 

New or Second-hand?

Would you go new or use x-hire stuff?

 

Cabling.

I'm not really in 'the know' here and would thus look at big multi-cores etc but I understand that alot of this can be done using other methods.

Sorry again, but what are the other methods?

 

 

If your still reading at this point, many many thanks.

I understand that what I'm asking for is a fair bit but if you give me a pointer (or even a web link) I'll wander off and do the leg work.

Although I may come back with a whole lot more questions :)

 

I know that some on here are sales outlets etc. Please by all means email me direct with suggestions if you'd like.

 

Thanks again.

Paul.

[tolley1466]

Would it not be easier to contact a company who specialises in installing sound/lighting systems to carry out the consultation and job?

[paulfurze]

Would it not be easier to contact a company who specialises in installing sound/lighting systems to carry out the consultation and job?

 

Tolley, I'm certainly gonna do that!. You any suggestions of companies you'd use?

[MarkPAman]

Hi Paul.

 

I'll comment on the desk bit

Digital or analogue for the desk?

<Snip>

 

By the time you add in effects units, gates, comps, eq etc to an analogue desk & rack & cable it all up, a digital desk may well work out cheaper. The question you'll need to answer is can everybody who needs to, operate it.

 

Most digi desks now are able to use one or two runs of cat5 cable & have a way of splitting signal for monitors too.

 

No, monitor desks do not usually need to be the same size as FOH as there'll be stuff for FOH that's not needed in monitors. A 32 channel desk would probably be enough if you FOH is 40. There are times when bigger monitor desk are required but these are unusual in my experience. If you're going digital, you will need something from the same manufacturer.

 

Passive splitters are fine for a two way split, though in a digital system you may end up with "something more clever"

 

For the function room - are you ever going to use 3 desks at the same time, or could one of the ones from the main room be moved when needed?

 

So, if people can use it OK, I'd look at two or three digital desks with digi multicore/control cable from one manufacturer. I have a Roland desk, so would be considering 2x M400 & possibly an M380, with relevant stage boxes & splitter. However you should also look at all the other systems as each one has its plus & minus points.

[mallyJJ87]

Alot of this will come down to budget; an the council specify an exact price, other than 'as low as possible'?

 

In terms of your cabling and splitters question, I believe there's a few ways of doing this. Standard multi core, using an active or passive 2 way splitter box, or a system such as cobra net, which uses cat5 (ethernet) cabling, and would come with its own splitter box, including A/D converters. Alternatively you could go fibre optic and use a system such as light viper, but I seriously doubt a council budget would stretch to that! Most digital desks have MADI connectivity, which sends up to 56 channels of audio down a 75ohm coaxial cable, so theres another option there.

 

A digital system would definitely reduce the amount of cabling, but may be more expensive.  Maybe something like a Yamaha LS9 or Mackie TT24 for the monitor desk, and an Allen and heath or Sound craft for FOH? 

 

No, a monitor doesn't have to the the same size as the FOH desk; it just depends on how many monitor mixes you think the venue will require.

 

Also, If I were in your position, I would look at who is going to be operating this equipment.  Is it going to be local bands? Are they experienced,

 

Theres no point in spending money on really up to date, hi tech kit, if there isn't anyone who can get the most out of it. What ever kit you buy, it will only ever be as good as the person/people operating it...

 

It might be worth going to see a local Audio/lighting Hire/install company and inviting them to become part of the project; they do jobs like these all the time and would be useful have on board.

 

Hope this helps bud.

[paulfurze]

Thanks all,

Been on the phone all afternoon!

Lots of options and as many different ideas.

Gonna be 'jenning' up a fair bit over the next week or so.

[dboomer]

You should begin by picking speakers that can supply the coverage you'll need for the room. Just shooting out a wattage number is completely futile. That would be like saying I'm gonna pick a speaker that weighs so many kilos.

 

Your biggest hurdle will be getting both floor and balcony coverage. Solve that and the other things will just fall into place.

 

Don Boomer

Line 6, inc.

[blueacid]

You should begin by picking speakers that can supply the coverage you'll need for the room. Just shooting out a wattage number is completely futile. That would be like saying I'm gonna pick a speaker that weighs so many kilos.

 

Your biggest hurdle will be getting both floor and balcony coverage. Solve that and the other things will just fall into place.

 

Don Boomer

Line 6, inc.

 

This man speaks the truth. But overall, it sounds like the sort of thing that'd require a couple of companies to have a look - they'd be far more capable of looking at the venue and letting you know what it needs. Then the system supplied can be specced correctly. If you spec it with too feeble an output power, you'll be running it flat out a lot of the time, making for bad quality sound, and hefty repair bills. For a tenuous analogy, tow a large caravan with a 1.1 fiesta. Or, get a large Land Rover and do it effortlessly on half power, without having to replace broken bits every 200 miles.

[TonyMitchell]

If you spec it with too feeble an output power, you'll be running it flat out a lot of the time, making for bad quality sound, and hefty repair bills.

 

Remember to look at the dB rating, the numbers that tell you something useful are the sensitivity (typically measured with 1 watt of amplifier power at 1 metre from the source) and the maximum continuous SPL (WRMS rating of the box measured at one metre). Beware of "calculated" as opposed to "measured" SPL numbers that may not have factored in power compression or may be based on a test tone which does not represent music programme material across the full frequency spectrum.

 

As Don has already said, a "wattage" number on its own tells you nothing useful about the speakers' sound characteristics.

 

 

For a tenuous analogy, tow a large caravan with a 1.1 fiesta. Or, get a large Land Rover and do it effortlessly on half power, without having to replace broken bits every 200 miles.

 

True... and continuing with this analogy, the engine size of a vehicle is about as useful a number as the wattage of a loudspeaker. It doesn't tell you how fast the car will go, nor how many miles per gallon you will average. Sure, a petrol 4.6Lt Range Rover will pull your caravan effortlessly, however the 2.5Lt turbo-diesel version will do an equally good job and use considerably less fuel.

[blueacid]

If you spec it with too feeble an output power, you'll be running it flat out a lot of the time, making for bad quality sound, and hefty repair bills.

 

Remember to look at the dB rating, the numbers that tell you something useful are the sensitivity (typically measured with 1 watt of amplifier power at 1 metre from the source) and the maximum continuous SPL (WRMS rating of the box measured at one metre). Beware of "calculated" as opposed to "measured" SPL numbers that may not have factored in power compression or may be based on a test tone which does not represent music programme material across the full frequency spectrum.

 

As Don has already said, a "wattage" number on its own tells you nothing useful about the speakers' sound characteristics.

 

This is true. A higher 1w/1m SPL level (in DB) means the speaker is more sensitive. Meaning, it's louder for the same power input. Admittedly, making speakers more sensitive is quite costly, so you'll notice that 'cheapo' speakers are less sensitive than (say) a JBL / EV / etc.

 

Actually come to think of it, is there any chance you could take a few photos of the venue and upload them? That way us armchair critics can give you a decent starting point to work from?

[TonyMitchell]

This is true. A higher 1w/1m SPL level (in DB) means the speaker is more sensitive. Meaning, it's louder for the same power input. Admittedly, making speakers more sensitive is quite costly, so you'll notice that 'cheapo' speakers are less sensitive than (say) a JBL / EV / etc.

 

:)

JBL may be known for many things, but driver efficiency isn't one of them! Even the more expensive & higher end JBL boxes really like some power up them to make them sing.

[RoyF18]

Yep agreed, I'm surprised someone compared a 'cheapo' speaker against JBL. Even EV nowadays to be honest....

Probably the key to this installation would be looking at how adaptable it needs to be. Can whoever operates the theatre stuff operate the desk as well as the guy that does the rock & roll stuff? - or are they the same guy? In which case which desk/system does he like? As long as it's reasonably future proof then maybe not dumb idea.... It's worth even remembering practical implications like how easy it is to remove (completely) the monitor desk and associated gubbins when you have a large(ish) theatre job on the go, i.e. panto, where you need as much of the wing space as possible.

Looking at the capacity of the venue then I'm guessing you don't have too many serious large acts/riders coming in with fussy engineers, but even so you might as well get it right while you have the chance.

Also please remember that (and no doubt I'll piss people off by saying this) but a lot of the install companies just see "$$$$$$" the minute you mention 'installation' and 'council'. I really hope you haven't fallen into this trap. It appears to be common up here in Scotland - there are a lot of big-money, sub-standard installations that end up frustrating everyone...

[paulfurze]

Thanks all,

 

I take the slap for quoting wattage. :P Should've seen that comming really. Appologies for that.

And over the last few weeks have been explaining speaker sensitivity to a student I have! (tch tch tch)

 

Right...onto the the current state of events...

I've spoken now to 12 companies in the area. Some have been to visit the hall and some are still to come.

I've a roughed out spec that is being updated based on their comments etc etc.

 

I'm hoping that by end of september I'll have a 'decent' statement of requirements and a costing sheet prepared to hand in to the local committee.

 

Think we're on with sorting it now and some of the BR members have pm'd me and even offered to help.

I guess when quotes come in there'll be tech questions to ask which'll be ask here. (not wattage though )

 

RoyF18...definitley correct about that council stuff...but...I'll add it here so that the 'lurkers' are aware as well that currently there is no budget only a plan. It'll probably not be the council sorting it as there is a seperate committee involved thats not a council committee. I've no involvement with the finance or the committee or the council.

I was ask by one of the committee to 'spec it' and cost it. (I agreed on the condition I could have 1st play!)

 

Again thanks all for all the comments.

[Paul TC]

I was ask by one of the committee to 'spec it' and cost it. (I agreed on the condition I could have 1st play!)

 

To pickup on the comment earlier re the user base for this equipment and their skill level.

 

Is there a resident technical support for this kit (both sound & lighting) ?

 

Have you looked at ongoing support costs. Any install, will have a cost of ownership in terms of hard cash to pay for it and someone to look after it.

 

How are you going to deal with issues. E.g. Where is whovever is responsible, going to find spares/support at 6.00pm on a Saturday for an event, when the Friday Night hire forgets, to tell you what they broke, be it all the mic cables ripped from the radio pack connectors, or beer in the lighting / sound desk ?

[paulfurze]

PaulTc....

 

Your very right. Support is one of the issues that we still have to deal with. Some of the suppliers obviously offer a support agreement.

However, the 'on the spot' support is still to be finalised. Also the running operation of the 'system' and any staffing levels required are also still to be discussed.

Cold stored spares (or even some hot) will thus obviously have to figure in our overall scheme.

 

We're still at a sort of Phase I cost finding, all these things will have to come out in the detailed design phase, but your point is very valid and something, I had thankfully, got down already.