Young people, stage and loud noise

[simonwest]

Hi all,

 

I have not necessarily a question, but a discussion about preference / methods with respect to 11/12 year olds regarding stage, hearing, potential and their future....

 

I did a show last night, only a little show...more of a favour....with a band that myself and Rob Beech are looking after. The band, as mentioned, are 11/12 years old and of all the shows I've ever done they are actually quite good. Granted, most of the songs they are currently playing are what you might consider average popular pub songs which 'everyone are doing' but their timing, individual musical abilities and overall band presence has a potential that shouldn't be ignored if nurtured in a good, imaginative way.....

 

However, most venues they play within at the moment are clearly going to be small, pubs/clubs (if age restrictions allow ), community centre, amateur festivals and the like.

 

 

Now on to the fun part.

 

Their gig list is growing, almost every weekend at this rate..and the last thing you'd want for them is to have hearing issues by the age of 17.

 

So, how to protect them whilst giving them what they need......in ears? the radio spectrum issues don't really help seeing as theirs no solution to the spectrum change if it occurs.

 

Monitors, provide monitors but hack out most of the 'hurtful' frequencies that our ears are most sensitive too, although speech intel will be reduced. that may be un-useful in small spaces if all they want is vocals.

 

Hearing protection, yes but experience states louder stage noise in the end.

 

This list could go on, I've been using cross positioning (as best as can) of things like guitar cabs so I don't need to put the through monitors and concentrated on giving a good unhurtful voice with a bit of kick and keys. stage noise (except for snare acoustically being ear perforating) was kept to 99dBa.

 

Clearly though this will get louder as they get more confident and start 'knowing what they want'.

 

So I'm curious as to whether anyone else has worked with younger bands (we've all done 16 years olds/ 6 formers who have no idea and everything’s always loud) but these guys are an interesting experiment as to what happens when you catch a good band at a young age....and see whether any thing can be learned from having an opportunity to be influential at an early part in their career.

 

 

Open arms to suggestions, no doubt Simon Lewis will quote me some lectures from back at uni :** laughs out loud **: I do have other ideas, but really hoping to start a worthwhile discussion..

 

give them a punchy knock out awesome sound, perfectly doable.....but what about their long term hearing and potential long term career and burn out?

 

Cheers

Simon

[parky58]

I've played in bands now for 30+ years. The biggest help to protecting my ears (and that of my wife's) has been the introduction of digital drum kits. Granted the sound isn't as dynamic as an analogue kit, and not the drummer,s first choice, but in small venues the ability to keep control of the sound and away from your ears is essential. The guitarists and other musicians can also learn to restrict their own stage noise as they arn't competing. I myself use a Line 6 Pod X3 for my instrument sounds (Electric and acoustic guitars, accordeon, banjo, mandolin) without a backline amp but with individual monitor mixes courtesy of my Yam LS9 (6 peice band) our stage sound is comfortable but dynamic. Our only backline amp on stage is the bass which doesen't have to compete with anthing else.

 

In larger venues - theatres, outdoor festivals we revert to analogue drums and backline where appropriate.

 

Hope this helps progress the debate,

 

Steve

[mostlyharmless]

Hearing protection might increase the level of vocals, and similar in the monitors. However, is the overall level not brought down by the reduction of the snare, and other parts which arn't so loud in the monitor.

 

Certainly the drummer should be wearing plugs even if noone else is.

[i_hate_fisicks]

I find that the biggest problem for hearing damage is rehearsal, not performance. Obviously performances can often be too loud, and measures should be taken. But rehearsals usually take place in a much smaller space, where the sound has nowhere to go. So drums and guitar amps in a small room are usually deafening. So whatever precautions you come up with, they need to be implemented from the rehearsals onwards.

[simonwest]

So as we have discussed, theres alot to be said about the rehearsel space....clearly in most bands young days they end up in garages or small spaces that they can find!

 

So, hearing protection?? although this dosent help the neighbours and still encourages louder foldback system (whether thats guitar cabs pointing at their ears or full blown monitor system)....what could be seen as best practice?

 

Headphone mixes?Towel gaffer taped over the snare to damp down that 'crack' with the 4kHz peak within?...

 

Personally, im up for electronic drum kits, pods, and headphone mixes (good headphones with resonable frequency response such as hd280 pro but they are £89 a pair)

 

this could, in theory, be translated into their live performances too! however I'm sure they all probably won't want to wear headphones for monitoring purposes and be distant from their audience....

[Kevin Ross]

As a bass player I find I can hear myself better with ear plugs in. At the moment I am using the rather excellent and cheep alpine ear plugs with the gold filters. They don’t muffle the noise but reduce it to a nice level.

 

 

 

As with everything the “talent” has to be used to playing with them so phase them in at rehearsal so they get used to playing with ear plugs in. You might even find the singer can hear themselves better and wont need so much in their monitors, YMMV.

 

 

 

I’m sure you have already stressed the importance of good hearing protection as you only get one pair of ears and I’m sure we all have stories of working with some longer running performers who are deaf as a post.

[i_hate_fisicks]

I have tried playing with ear plugs in (those Alpine musician ones). I can just about get away with it when playing drums, but it's very difficult when I play keyboards. We have recently got some electric drums and it's such a vast difference. We can now rehearse in a small room without the singer even needing a mic. I generally prefer playing them to acoustic drums too. There's not the range of dynamics and snare sounds available, but this is totally outweighed by the quietness! I wish they'd been available/accessible 10 years ago, it'd have helped my hearing no end! The only down side is that you need a much stouter PA to cope with electronic drums than you might do otherwise.

[jim b]

I think the rehearsal point is a good one, however small pubs tend to put people in very close proximity to each other. From my recollection of mates bands in the past it's the unamplified drum kit which causes everything to become very loud on stage to keep up. Have you considered a plexi glass screen for the drums? (Normally I'm not a fan but in small spaces they may just give you the space you need and clean up the vocal mics in front. Obviously hearing protection for the drummer would be good as he will be in a loud environment unless you go electronic (a good sounding/feeling electronic kit is very expensive though and never quite as good as acoustic). I think trying to isolate/eliminate drum noise would be the first key to finding a happy place for the band's ears to live...I'd be wary of putting them on in ears until they will have someone reliable operating them for them the whole time as one bad experience may take years to overcome!

 

Let us know how you go

 

Jim

[simonwest]

After recommending to the bands boss, manager, umm....I'm not sure what to call her (friendly person she is) to come and read this topic I'm hoping to summarise some points for her??

 

Rehearsal space, Clearly they are not going to be able to afford an acoustically preferable environment, and they should really find a way of protecting themselves abit. Can we recommend an ear plug type that most of them can wear (obviously individuals own set :) ), maybe from http://www.ultimateear.com/music.htm theres the er15's, obviously theres other places to get moulds (ones which are tailored to the individuals ear), but clearly a band of 11 year olds will have not the budget to invest £100 + on ear defenders particularly on an organ that will change in size/shapre over the next few years. So apart from the £2 for a pack of 8 b&q ones, can anyone suggest a relatively cost effective (but maybe not the best) solution that could be renewed on a 6month - yearly basis?

 

Equipment usage, They have a PA, one sub/one top a side...peavey hysis top. It works for their budget, as there just isn't the money to invest in carlsboro, behringer or otherwise. The drummer uses a gretch? (unsure) 5 piece kit, the snare must be dampened down, its a killer..... is their any drummers on here that can suggest away of taking out that 4kHz crack that makes the ear pierce . a towel has been used to some effect but a better solution would be appreciated?

 

Guitar cabs, ones a line 6...happens to feedback often. the others a marshall standard combo. I would recommend some guitar amp stands http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/...ifier-Stand/8GP in order to aim the cab at the guitarist ears, but also position the cabs accross the stage instead of forward towards the audience so less goes into same direction as PA, thus hopefully reducing gain on vocal into PA.

 

hmmmmm any other suggestions?

 

cheers

Simon

[andy_s]

I saw earplugs in Rose Morris (musical instruments and gear shop in london) for £25, with different inserts to alter the amount of attenuation - can't remember the brand name, but I think they were a brand that were recommended in another BlueRoom thread as a good budget option...just looked them up; here they are, pretty sure I saw this brand mentioned elsewhere...

 

Also, not sure if this would be the right application for it, but I came across this "The Jam Hub" which has a guide price for the smallest version of about £300, so a significant but not astronomical cost. I think it's probably more about avoiding noise pollution than protecting the band, so may be completely inappropriate.

 

(My next door neighbour (party walls) got a drum kit for christmas, I'm kind of wishing they'd given him one of these as well!!!)

 

(ed for spelling)

[simonwest]

I'm not a drummer or will never pretend to be, but does moon gel help in reducing that hurtful crack whilst maintaining the overall good sound of the snare? or is there another devide other than gaffer that helps?

[Russ83]

I know I'm just stating the obvious but why don't they just play quieter for rehearsals? As an exercise get the kids to play to their quietest member instead of turning everything up to match the loudest.

 

Guitars and keys have it easier as they can turn the volume knob down but playing drums quietly is an skill that seems very lacking. I know you get a slightly different tone from the kit when you don't hit them as hard but it still gives a sound good enough for rehearsal. I can quite happily play an acoustic kit to accompany an unmic'd singer or a 50 piece band, you just change your dynamics to match the event and the environment.

 

If I'm playing a lot of loud music then I will use my ER-20s to bring down the level going into my ears but I wish someone would have given me a pair when I was 11, it would have stopped some of the damage now done! Like the OP I do worry about the sound levels in some of our practise rooms at work (school) as these rooms are tiny (9' x 7') and my ear drums really start to hurt after 20 seconds and yet the bands stay in there for a couple of hours after school. I have mentioned it to the head of music but I wonder who is liable should someone put in claim :unsure: .

 

When the bands start to do gigs they usually stop using school for rehearsals and hire a practise room. They have several to choose from around here as a few of the old mills have been converted into mini studios with 10 or so practise rooms (around 30' x 30' and bigger) on different floors that bands can either hire per hour or 'rent' full time and leave their instruments/amps set up (at their own risk etc). The price per hour is quite reasonable especially when split between 4/5 people so it is worth having a look round as playing in a larger space does help a little.

[Wilflet]

I'd like to (only partial tongue in cheek) suggest something along the lines of This

[simonwest]

that is absolutely awesome!

 

not quite the isolated guitar rigs with soundfield microphones / pre rigged mics.....but it would certainly work!

[blueacid]

Found the alpine music safe earplugs a little cheaper: http://www.stagebeat.co.uk/product.php?product_id=100599

 

Those would do well for rehearsals. Another option which the players might not like could be the use of rubber practice mats on the drum kit. This attenuates the drum sound and changes it rather dramatically but still allows people to hear the drumming sound. For further details, tap a pen on your car steering wheel.

 

Still helps keep time, but it'd force the guitarists to turn their amps down to match. Mantains the sanity of anyone in the vicinity of the rehearsal too :)