midi mouse with lighting desk

[bugsymol]

Hi everyone, I play in a band and have been operating 11 fixtures through a DMX desk.Its one of those £80 12 scanners 192 channel jobs by Botex, I bought a Midi mouse that is basicly a foot switch to send midi signals to the desk so I can be hands free. Unfortunatley it does not work. The chases on the desk dont work so the midi section could be faulty. I have programmed them to be on the same channel, In the DMX manual it states that midi starts at 00 wheras the midi mouse starts at 01 maybee this is an issue. I bought a replacement identical controller from china and although it had an identical midi button NO INPUT Dhoo. Before I invest in another desk can anyone tell me if it will work.

[neilalexrose]

Have you got a make and model for the Botox desk? Or better yet a link to the Manual?

 

Reading briefly about the midi mouse, I think you may have mis-understood what it will do when connected to your desk. The midi mouse appears to simply transmit a program change midi message from 1 - 128. Now what will happen when you transmit a program change from midi-mouse to your desk depends on the desks midi options - hence the request for the manual link.

In your manual it should tell you what the desk will do when it receives the program change message. On some desks it will fire cues, on others it will change sub pages. But I doubt if it will change the levels on any channels.

If you are looking to fire chases, there may be a midi command for it, probably a note on/off or similar.

 

Also have you checked that they are both talking to each other on the same midi channel?

 

What are you actually wanting to happen when you press the footswitch? You may be limited with this desk and a controller that will only transmit one type of midi message. You may need a programmable controler/midi keybaord

 

As for the difference in midi start numbers, some devices have a range from 0 - 127, and other go from 1 - 128. They will still talk to each other and respond, however you will need to alter one or other of the numbers in playback. (for example press 2 on the footswitch will fire cue 1 on the desk, press 3 on the footswitch and cue 2 will fire.)

 

 

HTH

 

Neil

[bugsymol]

Have you got a make and model for the Botox desk? Or better yet a link to the Manual?

 

Reading briefly about the midi mouse, I think you may have mis-understood what it will do when connected to your desk. The midi mouse appears to simply transmit a program change midi message from 1 - 128. Now what will happen when you transmit a program change from midi-mouse to your desk depends on the desks midi options - hence the request for the manual link.

In your manual it should tell you what the desk will do when it receives the program change message. On some desks it will fire cues, on others it will change sub pages. But I doubt if it will change the levels on any channels.

If you are looking to fire chases, there may be a midi command for it, probably a note on/off or similar.

 

Also have you checked that they are both talking to each other on the same midi channel?

 

What are you actually wanting to happen when you press the footswitch? You may be limited with this desk and a controller that will only transmit one type of midi message. You may need a programmable controler/midi keybaord

 

As for the difference in midi start numbers, some devices have a range from 0 - 127, and other go from 1 - 128. They will still talk to each other and respond, however you will need to alter one or other of the numbers in playback. (for example press 2 on the footswitch will fire cue 1 on the desk, press 3 on the footswitch and cue 2 will fire.)

 

 

HTH

 

Neil

 

Hi Neil

page 14 of this link tells what the midi should do.

 

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl...l%3Den%26sa%3DG

 

This is exactly what I want it to do so why does it not work.

 

I have them on the same channel but when I press the midi footswitch nothing happens.

 

I suppose the simple answer is the desk is faulty.

 

Can I do a prosses of elimination to see what is at fault.

 

Thanking you in advance.

 

John

[Wol]

The midi mouse appears to simply transmit a program change midi message from 1 - 128.

 

If you read the manual, its expecting NOTE ON and NOTE OFF messages, not program change messages. Mentioned above, it says that the footswitch sends program change messages. These are two different types of messages, and are not compatible.

 

Note on / off messages are sent when you press a key on a keyboard (what the desk says it wants connected). Program change messages are used to change other configurations on a midi device, rather than sending notes.

 

It's like sending an email message to a webserver. It just isn't going to work!

 

This is exactly what I want it to do so why does it not work.

 

Read up on how MIDI works (Google is handy here!)

 

Either make the footswitch send a note on / note off message, make your desk respond to program change messages or put something inbetween which translates between the two.

[bugsymol]

NOTE ON and NOTE OFF messages, not program change messages. This is all very confusing?

Can you tell me what type of footswitch will give me note on note off.

I feel like Ive been told off.

:P :(

Regards John

[Wol]

If you have a google around, you'll see that there are a variety of different formats of midi messages to perform different tasks.

 

Note on / note off / program change / control change are the most common (as far as my usage of MIDI has gone) and are thus used for different things. If you're using MIDI with a footswitch, then depending on how expensive the footswitch is, it either has a fixed message it sends (like yours), or you can configure it. I know the BCF2k midi "desk" has a footswitch, and you can configure it as to what type of message and what channels to send it on, but I imagine thats a tad more expensive than your current hardware!

 

As Neil asked, what do you want to happen on the desk for when you press this footswitch? If you want it to do one of the predefined functions (e.g. one of the list of things in the manual you linked to) then you're probably best off having a look on google or ebay for a footswitch which can send note on / note off messages, or for a cheap keyboard which has midi on it, and which also supports a footswitch (not personally sure of any particular makes / models, so can't help you there)

 

In my experience of MIDI stuff on digital pianos, the pedals will just send a control change value saying that the sustain is a certain amount, rather than a note on/ note off (pedals don't play notes ;-) ), so make sure that you find something which can do note on/note off messages.

 

Once you've got that, just work out which scene / chase you want to fire, and then configure the relevant note on the foot pedal if you can!

 

Apologies if my first reply felt a bit "told off"ish though! Wasn't meant that way! If you're a newcomer to MIDI it can seem a bit confusing until you get the hang of it so it's a legitimate question. Took me ages before I managed to get MIDI happily working on my keyboard years ago. Didn't help when the computer with the MIDI interface in was upstairs and my keyboard was downstairs. Don't think my mum appreciated these MIDI cables dangling around the house! heh

[bugsymol]

Thank you you have been so thorough in your reply.

I have googled for England and besides the expensive midi foot pedals for guitarists there is not much about. I have emailed a company in Canada called "Midi solution" that are producing specialized units so I await their reply. I have relations that come over from Canada regular so that might work out.

Anybody want a midi mouse !!

One last thing this "note on note off" If I send a midi note 00 to the controller I presume that is note on. If I then send 01 to the controller that is also note on. Does that mean both are on. Or does the second command averide the first creating note off of the first.

Regards John

 

If you have a google around, you'll see that there are a variety of different formats of midi messages to perform different tasks.

 

Note on / note off / program change / control change are the most common (as far as my usage of MIDI has gone) and are thus used for different things. If you're using MIDI with a footswitch, then depending on how expensive the footswitch is, it either has a fixed message it sends (like yours), or you can configure it. I know the BCF2k midi "desk" has a footswitch, and you can configure it as to what type of message and what channels to send it on, but I imagine thats a tad more expensive than your current hardware!

 

As Neil asked, what do you want to happen on the desk for when you press this footswitch? If you want it to do one of the predefined functions (e.g. one of the list of things in the manual you linked to) then you're probably best off having a look on google or ebay for a footswitch which can send note on / note off messages, or for a cheap keyboard which has midi on it, and which also supports a footswitch (not personally sure of any particular makes / models, so can't help you there)

 

In my experience of MIDI stuff on digital pianos, the pedals will just send a control change value saying that the sustain is a certain amount, rather than a note on/ note off (pedals don't play notes ;-) ), so make sure that you find something which can do note on/note off messages.

 

Once you've got that, just work out which scene / chase you want to fire, and then configure the relevant note on the foot pedal if you can!

 

Apologies if my first reply felt a bit "told off"ish though! Wasn't meant that way! If you're a newcomer to MIDI it can seem a bit confusing until you get the hang of it so it's a legitimate question. Took me ages before I managed to get MIDI happily working on my keyboard years ago. Didn't help when the computer with the MIDI interface in was upstairs and my keyboard was downstairs. Don't think my mum appreciated these MIDI cables dangling around the house! heh

[Wol]

Each midi note number corresponds to a note on a keyboard. Have a look here to get a list of which note corresponds to which value.

 

If you send:

 

Note on 00

Note on 01

 

its the same as pressing the low C and C# on a keyboard at the same time so in theory (as far as I can guess) should trigger both of the corresponding scenes at once on your desk at the same time.

 

A scale from middle C on a keyboard in MIDI terms would be:

 

Note on: 60

Note off:60

Note on: 62

Note off: 62

Note on: 64

Note off: 64

 

etc.....

 

Hope that answers your question.

[neilalexrose]

There are several solutions I can see to your dilema.

 

The first is to find a lighting controller that will do what you want when you send it a program change signal, or even a controller that you can assign midi commands to different functions, like scene/chase recall, which would mean you could keep your midi-mouse. Not sure you will find a cheap solution, unless you go down the PC software route. (search PC lighting solution or similar)

 

The second is to use a midi keyboard, (a small 3 octave one might work) and play the notes on the keyboard to activate your scenes and chases. However I imagine that when you take your finger off the note, (thus transmitting a note off command) the scene on the controller may stop recalling. Not sure, as I have never tried it. Maybe you could borrow a midi keyboard and try some experimenting?

 

The third option is to find a programmable foot-pedal - like the Behringer FCB1010 (the cheapest I could find after a quick search at around £155), which it would appear (from a quick scan through the manual) that you can program each footswitch on the pedalboard to transmit any command you want (including note on/off commands). You should be able to set it up so that the switch will latch and continuously send the note on command on the first press, and then on second press the note off command (stopping the scene/chase recalling.).

 

The fourth option is again a computer option, but using a piece of show control software - like CSC, SCS or Qlab, or even AVD's free Midi buttons programme (search midi show control in the Wiki for others), in which you can programme cues to play back specific midi commands, and play them back in or out of order (and you should even be able to get the show control software to respond to the program change commands from your midi mouse).

The downside to this solution is of course having to take a computer to a gig, and loading up software, and is possibly a touch OTT for your needs. Plus as I suggested if you're taking a PC to a gig, you may as well run lights from the laptop instead of the controller.

 

Some food for thought, though I suspect the Behringer pedal may be your best and simplest solution.

 

 

Neil

[PoppaDom]

If you particularly like your controller then Midi Solutions makes a midi box that converts note information to program information and such like. This is one possible solution to your problem.

 

Dom