LS9 levels

[dan slv-tech]

Quickie

 

on the LS9 where on the main meters is +4dB? (in analogue world)

 

having issues where we sumtimes are not getting enough level from various outputs as the inputs arnt being driven hard enough.

I thought 0dB was about - 18 on the desk outputs?

 

anyone?

 

Dan

[Shez]

My recollection is that 0dBu is -18dBfs. Don't forget that there are attenuators available on the omni outs though - you could wind those right down and I don't think that would show on the meters.

[mervaka]

I'm talking ######, nevermind

[Lamplighter]

A quick measure shows +8dBu is approx -18 dBfs with the output attenuator at 0,

this is the first orange segment of display just illuminating.

The manual which shows -26dBfs = 0dBu so the measured result fits well.

I sometimes run with the attenuator at -4dB so that the first orange segment = +4dBu

 

Hope that helps.

Brian

[TimmyP1955]

According to the charts in the manual, +4dBu is -26dBFS (based on 0dBu = 0.775VRMS being -30dBFS). Lamplighter's +8dBu = -18dBFS measurement, which comes out to 0 = -26, which is 4dB off of the manual - close enough.

 

Their training info says that PFL 0 is -20dBFS, BUT they do not say if 0 is 0dBu or if 0 is +4dBu, BUT they are talking about PFL levels.

[Lamplighter]

According to the charts in the manual, +4dBu is -26dBFS (based on 0dBu = 0.775VRMS being -30dBFS).

 

This is indeed correct, I must remember to use my reading glasses when consulting the manual. A further measurement with the output terminated in 600 ohms gave -18dBf = + 6dBu ( actually +6.23) which is correct if you look at the full spec with the output gain switch ( internal setting) in its alternate position. My original figure of + 8dBu (+7.68 actual) was unterminated. This is interesting as the default setting is listed at -18dBfs = +12dBu and the covers have never been off my LS9 from new!

In practice it is academic as I set the amplifier outputs, not the amplifier inputs, to match the mixer.

Brian

[risc]

According to the charts in the manual, +4dBu is -26dBFS (based on 0dBu = 0.775VRMS being -30dBFS).

 

This is indeed correct, I must remember to use my reading glasses when consulting the manual. A further measurement with the output terminated in 600 ohms gave -18dBf = + 6dBu ( actually +6.23) which is correct if you look at the full spec with the output gain switch ( internal setting) in its alternate position. My original figure of + 8dBu (+7.68 actual) was unterminated. This is interesting as the default setting is listed at -18dBfs = +12dBu and the covers have never been off my LS9 from new!

In practice it is academic as I set the amplifier outputs, not the amplifier inputs, to match the mixer.

Brian

 

The output trims in the setup/outputs sections are in the analoge domain after the D/A and can be used as trims to suit receiving equipment that doesn't like a +24dbu/12.96v peak output, voltage matching between equipment is critical (gain structure?) and can greatly affect your ability to drive the desk in an effective manner. In this way the outputs of the console can be and should be adjusted to suit the input gain of the next device in the chain.

I find this feature very useful when taking the yamaha desks from venue to venue on different systems, it allows me to keep the gain stucture on the desk the same no matter what I connect the desk to.

 

Timmy is spot on 0db is --30dbfs

 

Discussion point.

Do you like to drive the desk like an analoge board or do you treat it as a digital desk at try to get as close to 0dbfs as possible , (using an alternative way to control overall system output)

[dan slv-tech]

Discussion point.
Do you like to drive the desk like an analoge board or do you treat it as a digital desk at try to get as close to 0dbfs as possible , (using an alternative way to control overall

 

 

 

interesting you should say that, digital mixing is fairly new for me, stil ironing out issues in terms of gain structure, I tend to bring the level into the desk quite hot (after pre amp) so I can drive auxes and get the on board dynamics working.

 

I feel that although its a great desk the dynamics are working in the analogue scale which makes it a little confusing.

My job NYE I found that I had quite alot of "electronic" hiss from the LS9 L+R outputs. To be fair there was so much headroom it wasnt funny but even still something I need to look at- I know that the systems I use need to be calibrated with one another to optimise the levels, which is something ive not really managed to do as yet ( lack of time)

 

I love the 9 to bits, but feel the dynamics dont respond how they would in the analogue domain- maybe someone can enlighten me on this?

I also fine that a PFL right after the Pre amp would be handy just because without realising you can EQ large amounts of gain away.

 

Dan

[Shez]

Do you like to drive the desk like an analoge board or do you treat it as a digital desk at try to get as close to 0dbfs as possible , (using an alternative way to control overall system output)

Despite it being a digital desk, trying to push the levels all the way to 0dBfs is a bad idea. In the early days of digital when systems were 16 bit (or effectively even less) it was necessary to run them pretty hot but now with 24 bit converters there's absolutely no need. I run average levels around the -18dBfs mark which of course gives me ~18dB of headroom, which for live music is a reasonably sensible amount. If you're getting hiss on the outputs, there's something wrong with the gain structure somewhere. Treat it like an analogue desk - if it helps, stick a new scale on the meter with +4dBu somewhere near -18dBfs. There's no reason to try to run it right up to 0dBfs - the distortion when you hit that point is far more unpleasant than anything you'll encounter with an analogue desk.

[dan slv-tech]

Despite it being a digital desk, trying to push the levels all the way to 0dBfs is a bad idea. In the early days of digital when systems were 16 bit (or effectively even less) it was necessary to run them pretty hot but now with 24 bit converters there's absolutely no need. I run average levels around the -18dBfs mark which of course gives me ~18dB of headroom, which for live music is a reasonably sensible amount. If you're getting hiss on the outputs, there's something wrong with the gain structure somewhere. Treat it like an analogue desk - if it helps, stick a new scale on the meter with +4dBu somewhere near -18dBfs. There's no reason to try to run it right up to 0dBfs - the distortion when you hit that point is far more unpleasant than anything you'll encounter with an analogue desk.

I hear what your saying shez, the probs I have is that when I set a level using cue with a peak level of about -18dbfs, I struggle to make things like compressors work, and signals going to FW and EQs is weak.

 

am I going about the setting the levels all wrong?

[mackerr]

Despite it being a digital desk, trying to push the levels all the way to 0dBfs is a bad idea. In the early days of digital when systems were 16 bit (or effectively even less) it was necessary to run them pretty hot but now with 24 bit converters there's absolutely no need. I run average levels around the -18dBfs mark which of course gives me ~18dB of headroom, which for live music is a reasonably sensible amount. If you're getting hiss on the outputs, there's something wrong with the gain structure somewhere. Treat it like an analogue desk - if it helps, stick a new scale on the meter with +4dBu somewhere near -18dBfs. There's no reason to try to run it right up to 0dBfs - the distortion when you hit that point is far more unpleasant than anything you'll encounter with an analogue desk.

I hear what your saying shez, the probs I have is that when I set a level using cue with a peak level of about -18dbfs, I struggle to make things like compressors work, and signals going to FW and EQs is weak.

 

The threshold setting on the comps has to reflect the level you are running. If you are setting peaks at -18dBfs your comp threshold is going to have to be below that for it to have any effect. I find my threshold settings are often around -21dB on my comps.

 

What part of the console is your final drive to the eqs (why not use the ones in the console)? What is the routing to that final stage? You may be losing some level at an intermediary stage in the console. What does the output of the console actually measure for level? Don't be afraid to make up some gain in the final output stages.

 

Mac

 

ps. The "Code" function is a way to insert executable code without it executing. It will disable word wrap and force the page quite wide. It is better to use the "Quote" function when you want to insert a quote from another post.

[Shez]

the probs I have is that when I set a level using cue with a peak level of about -18dbfs, I struggle to make things like compressors work, and signals going to FW and EQs is weak.

Depends a bit on what you mean by weak... Do you mean external EQs or in the internal ones? As has been said (and the levels diagram in the back of the manual is useful here) -18dBfs is +12dBu - I can't imagine any external graphic being unhappy with that level. I'm no expert with compressors but the ones in the LS9 have a threshold adjustable from 0 to -54 (presumably dBfs although I've never given it much thought). If you're running nominally at -18, that's equivalent to an analogue threshold from +18 to -36dBu (I'm thinking off the top of my head here - feel free to correct me if my reasoning is wonky!) Having just had a look at the compressors in my old analogue rack, their thresholds are all variable from +20 to -40dBu so it seems like a pretty good match. Don't try to compare the numbers on the digital threshold with the ones you're used to in the analgue domain - they're not the same. If you'd set a threshold at -16 on an analogue compressor, you would likely get a similar effect by setting the digital one at -34.

The goalposts have just shifted a bit - everything works just the same but the numbers used to identify the signal levels have all moved down.

[dan slv-tech]

the probs I have is that when I set a level using cue with a peak level of about -18dbfs, I struggle to make things like compressors work, and signals going to FW and EQs is weak.

Depends a bit on what you mean by weak... Do you mean external EQs or in the internal ones? As has been said (and the levels diagram in the back of the manual is useful here) -18dBfs is +12dBu - I can't imagine any external graphic being unhappy with that level. I'm no expert with compressors but the ones in the LS9 have a threshold adjustable from 0 to -54 (presumably dBfs although I've never given it much thought). If you're running nominally at -18, that's equivalent to an analogue threshold from +18 to -36dBu (I'm thinking off the top of my head here - feel free to correct me if my reasoning is wonky!) Having just had a look at the compressors in my old analogue rack, their thresholds are all variable from +20 to -40dBu so it seems like a pretty good match. Don't try to compare the numbers on the digital threshold with the ones you're used to in the analgue domain - they're not the same. If you'd set a threshold at -16 on an analogue compressor, you would likely get a similar effect by setting the digital one at -34.

The goalposts have just shifted a bit - everything works just the same but the numbers used to identify the signal levels have all moved down.

 

Im using internal graphics, normally just FOH and center- just find theres hardly any signal getting to them when I look at them on the rack.

NYE I really use the desk, and to be honest I was getting a lovely sound, but just felt I was having to max aux outs to drive monitor racks.

 

Am I correct in saying that if you have a signal peaking about -18dbfs on the LS9 then that leaves the desk at +4dB?

I dont think for whatever reason mine is- was having to raise the gain on the LMS to get a decent signal out.

 

I mite have to put a signal through it and see where the loss is.

[Shez]

Am I correct in saying that if you have a signal peaking about -18dbfs on the LS9 then that leaves the desk at +4dB?

I dont think for whatever reason mine is- was having to raise the gain on the LMS to get a decent signal out.

-18dBfs is actually +12dBu. The signal level diagram in the manual can help you convert the levels. Check on the omni out page as the outputs could be heavily attenuated there (if the previous user saw fit to do such a thing and you didn't start with a clean slate).

[TimmyP1955]

I run about -18 PLF on the vocals. Instruments are gained such that the faders are around unity (because of the finer resolution around unity).

 

I've not noticed a hint of hiss from the LS9, whereas I could hear plenty of his from the console that it replaced (which admittedly was old and had bad metering, so I erred on the side of caution gain-wise on it). And, the output meters are running about right (what little I've looked at them). Still, I'm gonna have a look to see how close the console outputs' 0dBFS are to the DSPs' OdBFS.