Dimmer Hunt

[Munro]

Hello Guys.

 

So, I am on a hunt for a dimmer! Well several. So, not being a dimmer expert I thought I would ask on here.

 

I am looking for a 96 channel system, therefore 16 x 6 channel dimmer.

 

I currently have 48 channels made up of 8 betapacks. I would like something that allows me to change the patch, as we have about 120 lantern. Our installed system has about 150 Plugs on the scaffold bars around the room/stage.

 

So I need to be able to patch the plugs to the channel on the dimmer.

 

I have looked at the strand wallrack, that would be fine but I can't patch. Are their any digital solutions in which I can assign a plug/lantern to a specific channel on the dimmer?

 

Thanks

Joe

[J Pearce]

By the time you've built a 150 way patch bay it may well be cheaper to install 150 dimmer channels and not have a patchbay.

 

It'll also be MUCH easier to look after! A venue I did a few shows in a few years back had 72 dimmer channels and a 100way patchbay and that was hell to patch, and nearly impossible to trace back if you had a fault somewhere!

[smalljoshua]

Would it not make economical sense to get a further 8 betapacks to accompany the 8 you already have?

 

If the current ones aren't hardwired (I'm assuming they aren't as you say you have almost 3x as many ways as dimming channels) then just place them next to/above the current ones and you're sorted.

 

Josh

[Mrrock101]

How about Zero88 Chillis? They come in 24 Channel Versions so you would only need 4 and you can do digital DMX adressing via the control panel. They also have scene preset panels you can place around the theatre for non-technical people to be able to put a basic stage wash up or whatever.

96 Channels requires a lot of power though - have you got enough to install it?

 

Josh

[JimWebber]

96 Dimming Channels (And for that matter 96 lanterns) Do not necessarily require a lot of power....

 

The power required depends on how many of those lights you want on At the same time.

 

I could run a 96 step chase of 1KW parcans off a 13A socket.

 

I am basing that on the fact at any one time, there will be one dimming out, one on full, and the next one fading up.....

 

Jim

[Munro]

By the time you've built a 150 way patch bay it may well be cheaper to install 150 dimmer channels and not have a patchbay.

 

It'll also be MUCH easier to look after! A venue I did a few shows in a few years back had 72 dimmer channels and a 100way patchbay and that was hell to patch, and nearly impossible to trace back if you had a fault somewhere!

 

Is it really that bad? I was thinking that it wouldn't be very practical, but now I think about it, I agree. I mean, if you have that number of lanterns surely you don't need to faff about moving them around?

 

Would it not make economical sense to get a further 8 betapacks to accompany the 8 you already have?

 

If the current ones aren't hardwired (I'm assuming they aren't as you say you have almost 3x as many ways as dimming channels) then just place them next to/above the current ones and you're sorted.

 

Josh

 

No they are not hardwired. However, they are a bit old now as they are the originals. Not 2/3s. They still work perfectly. I would just be happier with all the same strand dimmers. I know there are other dimmer manufacturers so knowone please point that out.

 

96 Dimming Channels (And for that matter 96 lanterns) Do not necessarily require a lot of power....

 

The power required depends on how many of those lights you want on At the same time.

 

I could run a 96 step chase of 1KW parcans off a 13A socket.

 

I am basing that on the fact at any one time, there will be one dimming out, one on full, and the next one fading up.....

 

Jim

 

thanks for your time Jim. However, I'm a little confused as too why you are telling me about running par cans off a 13a socket? Anyway. Have a great new year everybody!

 

 

Joe

[mrcog]

thanks for your time Jim. However, I'm a little confused as too why you are telling me about running par cans off a 13a socket? Anyway. Have a great new year everybody!

 

 

Joe

 

Mrrock said that running 96 channels of dimming necessitates a lot of power available whereas it really doesn't. And Jim said that through the Par Can chase story. However, if your looking at running quite a few of the dimmers at full then you may need to investigate whether you need to upgrade the power supply coming into the building... I don't know what you've got power wise so I shan't make and judgments :)

 

In response the the original question. If you take a look on the stage electrics website, they've got various dimmer prices up there that you can check out. If you went with hardwired dimmers you said you would want around 150 channels, so 6, 24 way dimmers, and one 12. That would set you back around 14150 just for the dimmers, plus installation costs I would say you'd probably be looking at 15,000ishh...

 

However, a Rack of Betapack 3's will probably set you back around 6500... Plus a patch bay. Around the 7500ish mark I think...

 

Bear in mind though the ease of use with the hardwired dimmers. However, the increase in price may put the hardwired dimmers out of budget range...

 

James

[Dmills]

I find I am re hanging my ~160 odd lanterns all the time actually.

 

Does the school really put on productions that NEED more then 48 channels on a regular basis? Pairing and stationing a dimmer operator at the racks to re patch as needed during the show were standbys when I was in school (gave you another job that needed doing, never a bad thing in a school situation). If the need is only occasional, I would spend the (rare, capital) money on something more useful (Comms, soft goods, possibly some more tab track, weights, braces, your department will know what is needed), and hire extra dimming for the one or two big shows a year that need it.

 

Now, if you ARE going with the dimmer upgrade, then I would second the advice to dump the hardpatch and go dimmer per circuit if your school can afford it.

 

The upside is a simpler installation and 96 vs 150 is not that great a change.

The downside is that there is a lot of re termination involved, but there may be that anyway (will the patch cables reach the extra 8 packs?).

You would also want to think carefully about hard power (which dimmer per circuit can make trickier).

 

Personally I would get a few install companies in to advise and quote the job a few different ways and see what looks good.

Unless you are moving to dimmer per circuit, there is probably no real reason to replace those existing betapacks if they are all working properly, they are still at worst early middle aged (There are still plenty of Mini 2, Permus and Tempus out there doing good work every day, and some of those are north of 40 years old), surely better to spend the difference on some more cable, lanterns, grelcos.....

 

For a new patchable install (not the way I would go if I was going here at all, but your teachers call), I might look at the Avo ART2000i (the patch is a lot more compact then something using 15A would be), but one thing to possibly bear in mind is that once you get past 6 way packs, most dimming is three phase (non issue in the real world, but **MIGHT** be a problem in a school). Also the weiland patch on the ART2000i might be somewhat less robust then the 15A solution (Also the patch on thee is at the top, which might pose an accessibility issue).

 

Are your racks in an isolated dimmer room, or are they next to the stage? It matters because some high density install dimming has large cooling blowers that are acoustically noisy (ETC Sensor and Compulite near equivalent for example).

 

Your LEA/School will probably have a preferred company they use for this kind of thing that they will end up wanting to consult.

 

One other thing that the school may want to address is the 15A plugs at the patch bay, if they are not sleeved pin, should they be in a school environment? Comes down to a risk assessment, but while I tend to feel that skilled and competent people can mitigate the risk to an acceptable level, neither can be assumed in a school.

 

Regards, Dan.

[Munro]

Thankyou for your replys.

 

I am still a little confused. Please explain things so a novice can understand :-) thanks

 

ok. I am going to contact our usual company and have a chat with them.

 

SOMETHING COMPLETLY DIFFERENT!

Just imagine this. (THIS IS NOT REAL, I AM JUST PLANNING THIS OUT AS A LITTLE TIME PASSER)

 

24 pars FOH

16 Profiles FOH

18 PCs on stage

18 Fresnels on stage

16 Floods on stage

04 PAIRS of floods on stage

 

so that's 96 channels

each socket that they plug into is installed for that lamp. There is exactly 96 sockets.

therefore in a setup like this where you don't have room for any more lights, a dimmer with a patch bay would be pointless. Yes?

Because even with a hardwired dimmer you can still swap lights around on the bars, providing there is a socket you can use.

 

How expensive are 24 way strand wallrack dimmers?

 

Another one. A fresnel lantern. How is it pronounced, Is it fres-nel or fren-el?

 

 

 

Joe

[AndyJones]

Strand are pretty much dead and do not make dimmers anymore AFAIK.You would need to look into alternatives such as those from ETC or Zero 88. If you were looking for 96 channels of dimming, It will be more cost effective where possible to get a 96 way install rack, rather than buying 4 x 24 channel separate racks.

 

I'm guessing that this is a completely hypothetical situation, The thought of a student being involved in an install which would need a budget of thousands, if not tens of thousands scares me! To give you an idea of price, A local venue of mine has spent £60,000(I can't remember the exact price but I think this is about right) on a 200ch ETC sensor rack including installation (other bits were included into this price!)

 

The S in Fresnel is silent, meaning that it is pronounced frenel.

[Dmills]

I'm guessing that this is a completely hypothetical situation, The thought of a student being involved in an install which would need a budget of thousands, if not tens of thousands scares me! To give you an idea of price, A local venue of mine has spent £60,000(I can't remember the exact price but I think this is about right) on a 200ch ETC sensor rack including installation (other bits were included into this price!)

 

Sounds about right, most of that will have been on the wiring not the rack (I found a pair of 96 way Sensors for £6K, they had never been installed).

We came in a little higher overall, but that is very much down to the details of a particular space.

 

As to the 96 lamp example (with the odd number of pars out front, but whatever), now what happens when a dance show needs some floor cans, a few booms (say 4 * 4 lamp booms per side) and a few birdies behind the upstage gauze, this is dance so most of the 40 channels you have to FOH is a waste of time, it will not be used.... You quickly end up pairing up to keep within the dimmer count available somewhere near where you need them.

In fact most shows pair at least some circuits, so it is quite reasonable to carry more lanterns then you have dimmers.

Installing a particular number of sockets assuming a rig that will always be fixed is STUPID (unless you are building a shopping centre, and even then!), stuff gets moved all the time.

 

As to students being involved in specification, I BUILT (From Thyristors, Unijunctions, chokes, transformers and misc small parts) the dimmers for my school (24 * 10A channels fed from a 60A three phase line that a parent installed for the purpose (Hey the old supply was cloth covered rubber and tended to spark and smoke randomly) while still in compulsory education!

My roll your own dimmers were still in use ~10 years later (and apparently never caused any problems).

 

Doubt you would get away with it these days.

 

Regards, Dan.

[Munro]

Andy Jones you have helped me!

 

I wasn't aware that strand had stopped with the dimmers. I know that they don't make lights anymore because the lights side is now covered by selecon.

 

Do ETC make any wall sockets like what strand do to control the lights from like a light switch?

[GridGirl]

It'll also be MUCH easier to look after! A venue I did a few shows in a few years back had 72 dimmer channels and a 100way patchbay and that was hell to patch, and nearly impossible to trace back if you had a fault somewhere!

 

We have 120 dimmer channels and a 250way patchbay....and fault-finding isn't difficult at all! So long as everything is clearly labelled and done in an orderly fashion, it shouldn't be a problem. Yes, you do end up with a bit of a spiderweb, but if the bay is well laid-out then it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Saturation dimming (a dimmer for every socket in the house) is nice - I've worked in several venues that have it - but if you haven't got that many dimmers then you do find yourself having to compromise and double up lanterns that ideally you wouldn't, purely for practical reasons. With a patchbay, even if you have limited dimmers, you can pair much more intelligently because you're not limited by practicalities.

[J Pearce]

Maybe it was a result of the layout of that particular install then.

 

However 'clearly labelled' and 'in an orderly fashion' don't sit too well with my experience of school kids doing technical theatre... :)

[AndyJones]

Do ETC make any wall sockets like what strand do to control the lights from like a light switch?

 

They do a range of products (Unison system, I believe?) Which is basically a touch screen panel with lots of different tabs, which can be used to control house lights, non-dims, work lights and preset lighting states. I think the system is fairly customizable with multiple panels which can be spread around the venue. I belive they also do more basic fader modules. Try having a look on there website to see what products they offer.

 

AndyJones