nortski Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Hi all, in need of some advice on getting a good live bass sound. I'm a bass player who has never played in a band before but has just recently formed a new band with an experienced singer but inexperienced guitarist and drummer. Although rehearsals are going great and we're all enjoying what we're doing but we spend too much time trying to sort the sound out. The problem is my bass sound, it just sounds like a mush, there's no claity in the notes and it's extremely off putting. The rest of the set up sounds great, got a lovely crisp sound on the guitars and drums sound great. I'm using a Markbass CMD 102P combo which I'm well happy with when it's on it's own but DI'ing it or micing it up sounds terrible! Our PA comprises of 2 x SR Technology Live 550A speakers and 2 x KV2 KX Audio KX1.5 Powered Subwoofers. Not the biggest rig in the world but it should be a good starting point. I can't help thinking it's something really elementary, like a flick of a switch, that will sort it out! It almost sounds like I got loads of reverb on my sound even though we have none setup on my bass channel. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Nortski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Siddons Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 How are you di'ing it? I would use a seperate di box connect the bass to box input then link into your amp and adjust the eq on the desk to suit, also try listening to the sound your amp is producing 10 feet in front of it which is what the audience hears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nortski Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 How are you di'ing it? I would use a seperate di box connect the bass to box input then link into your amp and adjust the eq on the desk to suit, also try listening to the sound your amp is producing 10 feet in front of it which is what the audience hears. Hi. The Markbass CMD 102p Combo Head 2 has the new Littlemark III as the amp which has a line out on the back with a post/pre eq switch, that's my DI. It doesnt seem to matter what setting I have the post/pre eq switch. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Alcock Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Nortski, You don't mention what desk you have, but I presume you're setting the levels OK (input gain etc) correctly? One thing you might try is to borrow some subs from someone else and see if matters improve. I have not used KX Audio subs, though did hear them at Plasa this year. The thing is they're bandpass subs which use two tuned chanbers to raise the efficiency of the box over a given frequency range. What you hear is the output of these resonant chambers which can take a while to get going. This is why bandpass boxes are often criticised for being sluggish and having a somehwat "one-note" quality to the sound, despite being able to go louder than a comparable front loaded reflex sub. The fact is you can't get something for nothing and increased group delay is usually the trade-off for efficiency. (I'm not saying all bandpass subs are bad, but what you're looking for - articulate, fast, bass transients may be the one thing that your subs are slightly less good at). PA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nortski Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Hi Pete. I understand what you're saying about the subs, unfortunaltly we're stuck with them for now so I'll have to make do with getting the most out of them. Regarding the mixing desk, I'm not sure which one we have, all the PA is owned by the singer. Any advice on what settings my bass channel should be on the mixer would be a good starting point. Thanks in advance. Nortski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 There's a really good track for testing how precise your bass end is - everyone probably has it too! Michael Billie Jean. It starts with bass and drums, the familiar bass riff that repeats through the song. The test goes like this. play the track from the start at your typical playing volume. After the bass and drums have been playing the synth part starts bum, bum.........bum, bum. Hum the first note of the synth part BEFORE IT STARTS and hold it. With accurate, precise bottom end, you can hit the note spot on. On systems with what I call 'smeared' bass, you get maybe a tone away. It's a one-off test, because once you have the real key, you can't unforget it. Just for curiosity, I tried it on this laptop with feeble bottom end, and got a semi-tone away. If you can get it spot on, then your bass response is musical, if you can't then it's just bottom end grunt, not real notes. I think this track works because the bass part is staccato, and doesn't give you enough time on each individual note to form the fundamental. On systems with good controlled bass, they can focus on the individual notes, and the smearing effect doesn't happen. I heard one of those awful wedding reception discos and was amazed how far out I was! I've used the test ever since and results are always very obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killyp Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 How do recordings sound through the PA? It may well be a problem with crossover frequencies, or the tops being unable to keep up with the subs, possibly resulting in an overly 'boomy' sound. An 8" powered by a 150w amp is probably going to struggle to cross over smoothly into a 15" bandpass sub. The KX subwoofers are quite good, although I preferred the 1.2, not as punchy but more musical IMO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Alcock Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Hi Nortski, I understand. In that case start with the eq settings. Start with your amp and the channel on the PA flat (no boosts or cuts) and see what that sounds like. Add eq carefully - it's like seasoning, too much can ruin the dish. If it's still flabby and indistinct then the next thing could be to look at the crossover between subs and tops. I can't find any details about the Live 550. Is it a 15" or 12" woofer. Is there any high pass filter or crossover to stop the bass going to the top boxes? If not it could be a cause. You want the tops to hand over to the subs for the bottom octave or so, not for them both to do it. An active crossover would sort this out. PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Siddons Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 The Markbass CMD 102p Combo Head 2 has the new Littlemark III as the amp which has a line out on the back with a post/pre eq switch, that's my DI. It doesnt seem to matter what setting I have the post/pre eq switch. Cheers. I would try it with a seperate di box just to be sure, in my experience a lot of thsese di outs of amps can be dodgy especially if, as you say, the pre post switch makes no difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nortski Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Hi Nortski, I understand. In that case start with the eq settings. Start with your amp and the channel on the PA flat (no boosts or cuts) and see what that sounds like. Add eq carefully - it's like seasoning, too much can ruin the dish. If it's still flabby and indistinct then the next thing could be to look at the crossover between subs and tops. I can't find any details about the Live 550. Is it a 15" or 12" woofer. Is there any high pass filter or crossover to stop the bass going to the top boxes? If not it could be a cause. You want the tops to hand over to the subs for the bottom octave or so, not for them both to do it. An active crossover would sort this out. PA. Finding this info really interesting guys, thx. Pete, I got some details on the SR's and KX's: SR Technology LIVE 550/AFrequency response 40Hz-20KHzSensitivity (1W-1m) 100dbSPL max 127dbCrossover Electronic -18db/octaveSystem-format 2-way Bi-ampWoofer 15"Horn 1,5"Max Power Out 450+100 W RMSConnections XLR (Line In) + XLR (Line Out)Controls Volume (line) + Ground Lift SwitchBox Two-way bass reflex KX Audio KX1.5System Acoustic Performance-3dB Response 38Hz - 125Hz-10dB Response 32Hz - 125HzMax SPL 130dBCrossover Point 125Hz Low Frequency SectionDesign Inside-outsideAcoustic Design Twin Asymmetrical loadingWoofer Size 381mm (15.00")Voice Coil Diameter 75mm (3.00") Diaphragm Material Epoxy Reinforced CelluloseMagnet Type Neodymium Signal InputInput Impedance 20kΩInput Sensitivity 0.75V rms Cheers matey, keep it coming ** laughs out loud **! A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on. How do recordings sound through the PA? It may well be a problem with crossover frequencies, or the tops being unable to keep up with the subs, possibly resulting in an overly 'boomy' sound. An 8" powered by a 150w amp is probably going to struggle to cross over smoothly into a 15" bandpass sub. The KX subwoofers are quite good, although I preferred the 1.2, not as punchy but more musical IMO... Hey Killp. This rig is also used by the singer and his son for duo gigs, both sing over backing tracks (criminal I know! ** laughs out loud **). Generally the tracks sound excellent but there are instances where the bass end sounds a little muddy but this only happens in certain tracks, probably due to the quality of the recording. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killyp Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 My bad, I read the specs for the wrong box! Ignore my post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I suspect you may get a bit of a bump in the 40 - 120Hz region. Without a crossover, both the top and the sub are producing sound in this range, which is normally to be avoided. If you can beg / borrow a crossover to try out, send everything above ~120Hz to the tops and everything below that to the subs. That should make a significant improvement to the way the system sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Siddons Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Forgot to ask but are we assuming its the bass sound through the pa you have a problem with? If its from your amp its another bucket of plaice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nortski Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Forgot to ask but are we assuming its the bass sound through the pa you have a problem with? If its from your amp its another bucket of plaice Hi, yeah I'm happy with my bass sound from my amp, not though through the PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Alcock Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Nortski, If you can't find a mate with a crossover you can try, it may be easier to get hold of a graphic equaliser instead, just as an experiment. Feed the top boxes via the graphic, with all the sliders below 125Hz set to minimum. Feed the subs directly from the desk. This will reduce the bass being sent to your top boxes. If it all starts to clean up and improve, you're on the way to finding a solution. A proper active crossover would then be the way forward. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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