MAC 250+

[WiLL]

Hi folks,

Some foolish bursar has given me control of my own budget MuHahahahahaaaa!

And I thought I'd spend it on some movers. Being as the venue has limited dimmer channels (36 in fact) but a Zero88 Illusion 120 desk (120 DMX channels).

I figured hey, with all those spare channels I could have me a moving light or two and solve the fact that I can't squeeze enough statics into my rig to do a 2 hour dance show justice.

The venue isn't huge, about 30' across and 30' deep with about 30' to the rig, so I should get enough output from a Mac250 right? I can't really afford the the 500 and I'm after a profile with effects, y'know the normal, colour change, gobo's prisming all that stuff.

The trouble is I've never operated movers before, I've rigged plenty, at my last place of work they do a show every year which uses about 30 moving yoke fixtures. But I've no idea if I need anything except spare DMX channels. I'll always have at least 60 spare channels and most of the time more, and someone once told me that an average mover takes up 16 channels?

What I mean is, I realise the desk won't be the fastest in the world for programming movers, but will it still cope?

 

Oh, and also, is the Mac250+ any good a sfar as a small mover goes? I can get them ex hire for under a grand each. Some guy was selling a pair on ebay for £700 but that sounded so good I think it was a little dodgy :blink:

[mac500]

AC Lighting are still doing there 2nd hand stock so you could look on there site.

 

I personally like the 250+'s however what you've gotta be aware of is what would you use them for? What shows are put on in the school?

[peter]

I think a major consideration will be control. Although the Illusion120 has 120 DMX channels, it doesnt have moving light capabilities. That will mean that you'll end up using HTP mixing to plot your moving lights.

 

Personally I think you'd be better off putting the finances towards LX budgets for future productions. You could save up the funds, and then when a show comes along which really needs moving headheads, you've got the budget there to get in what you need, without the upkeep cost. This also means you can get the best movers for the production - you might need a washlight one show and a spot the next. Why spend a minimum of £1400 on buying them, when you could hire them for around £60/week if you shop around. Thats a lot of weeks to pay back the investment.

 

I lit school shows using the 24 ways we had in our similarly sized venue. For one musical, I spent £1500 on hires - managed to squeeze 72 ways out of our 100A incommer, a dozen scrollers, couple of Mac 500s, decent followspots, Strand 530i, etc. That was the major musical of the year, and for smaller shows I would hire in bits and pieces as and when I needed it.

 

I think if you did a projected expenditure over 5 years, you'd still come out on top with the hire option - remember, the lamps alone set you back £70 a piece when they get old.

[paulears]

peters comment about the control is spot on. Attempting to run movers without a proper control is one of the most frustrating things you could do. master faders can't be used - cross-fades do odd things etc etc. without 2K+ or so for a control any money spent on buying movers is difficult to justify.

[Potassium Neuf]

I'd just like to point out that you can define channels to be LTP rather than HTP on the Illusion 120, but even then you would still have to control your moving lights on a channel by channel basis - not impossible, but not the most effective or intuitive method of operation :blink:

 

May I suggest that you look at the Illusion 500 with moving light control or a Fat Frog which can control up to 12 moving lights in a much simpler and neater way B-)

[gareth]

Sounds to me like you'd be much better off spending the money on adding to your stock of basic kit (another dozen dimmers and some more lanterns) instead of squandering it on toys.

 

[rant]

Why is it that, these days, everyone seems to think that buying a couple of moving lights is the quick and easy answer to the problem of not having enough equipment or dimmers in their venue? It's not. If you haven't got enough dimmers, buy more dimmers. If you haven't got enough lanterns, buy more lanterns. You can use lanterns and dimmers for absolutely any kind of production - moving lights are far more limited in their application (they wouldn't be much use to you if you're trying to light a straight drama, for example ...).

[/rant]

[Stu]

You could probably get 2 Betapack 2s and some more lanterns for the same price as 2 250w MLs, which would probably be much better value!

 

Not to mention all sorts of other useful little things! Not a fan of the Mac 250s by the way, compared to other movers out there that use the 250w Lamp they are pretty poor in comparison. The newer Kryptons and Entours are alot nicer tho.

 

Stu

[Just Some Bloke]

[rant]

Why is it that, these days, everyone seems to think that buying a couple of moving lights is the quick and easy answer to the problem of not having enough equipment or dimmers in their venue? It's not. If you haven't got enough dimmers, buy more dimmers. If you haven't got enough lanterns, buy more lanterns. You can use lanterns and dimmers for absolutely any kind of production - moving lights are far more limited in their application (they wouldn't be much use to you if you're trying to light a straight drama, for example ...).

[/rant]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Here here!

 

Moving heads have their place and can be exactly what you need, but if you're using them to do specials then they're a waste of money. Don't forget that half the technique of lighting design is angle and 2 macs will only ever come from 2 angles whereas 6 or 8 S4Juniors can come from all over the place. A large portion of what's left of lighting design is colour and Macs will only ever have a limited number of colours. The Lee and Rosco swatches between them have hundreds.

 

Use what's best for the show. If the shows keep changing then don't pick kit that only suits the bands or modern dance shows. Source 4 profiles have a miriad of uses and having money spare for hiring Mcas when you actually need them is a very good plan IMHO.

[WiLL]

If you haven't got enough dimmers, buy more dimmers. If you haven't got enough lanterns, buy more lanterns

 

 

 

And if I don't have enough power coming into the venue? Do I buy more of that too? B-)

 

Thanks to stu and the others who actually answered my questions regarding the board and the macs.

Gareth matey, before you fly off the handle, would it appease you to know that I have already got together several quotes on 2 more racks (the limit of my power) and several generic lanterns and a f/spot. The enquiry about the macs was just me balancing the alternatives as it were.

Honestly gareth you can be a right miserable old so-an-so sometimes :blink:

[gareth]

I wasn't flying off the handle at all. I was stating my opinions regarding the question that you asked. I believe in giving people advice when it's required, and I believe that you'd be best advised in looking at options other than moving lights. If you don't want advice, don't post a question on a public forum.

 

The fact that the two other people who posted following my post (Stu and JSB) happened to agree with what I suggested surely lends weight to my agrument. And the fact that you've already got quotes for extra dimmers and lanterns suggests that, deep down, you know that we're right.

 

So before you go flying off the handle, and getting the hump because you asked a question and didn't get the answer that you wanted, consider what would be best for your venue - augmenting your stock of basic lighting tools that can be used right the way across the board ; or buying toys that would be useful enough in some circumstances but absolutely bugger-all use for a proportion of the time.

 

I might be a miserable old so-and-so, but at least I give decent advice based on many years of experience in the business. Heed it or ignore it, it's your choice - but don't start getting the hump with me because I'm not telling you what you want to hear.

[colinmonk]

I would say, if you already had a healthy stock of standard lighting tools, then looking towards a couple of moving things isnt a bad option, it gives the kids chance to play with them at a school/6th form level, and means that they can understand what they are all about, and get them learning their limitations early...

 

Your conventional stock will be important though, so things like Source4 Jnr Zooms, and Source4 Pars you would probably find helpful? ( you may already have quite a healthy stock of these already ) Followspots as you mention are also another option to look into...

 

I would say that lighting design comes down to concept, direction, feel and in some ways emotion in respect to where you want to take the peice and what you want it to say, things like direction of light and colour are actually tools rather than design. The design is knowing why a particular angle will create a certain feel or emotion!

[SparkySteve]

Why is it that, these days, everyone seems to think that buying a couple of moving lights is the quick and easy answer to the problem of not having enough equipment or dimmers in their venue? It's not.

 

Personally I think you can completely change the style of a show by choosing between movers or generics or both. In some venues, ok, a few moving wash heads can more than do the job and some might say its slightly wasted but others might say it brings the right look about the show etc etc... I remember bein laughed at (from some people on here if I remember correctly... certain moderators too! hmmmm) for lighting a dance show with a load of parcans+scrollers and shedloads of source fours... like you say gareth... whats this obsession with movers ? (!) The show sort of had a mover look about it, but was done entirely with generics, the client was happy too! anyway, I think the origional post was to light a few dance show (please correct me if I've misread it) where personally I think a few 250's would go nicely, depending on what the rest of the rig was like... light the show with the generics, but "paint" the air with the movers. even a simple 2 macs in the air and two on the floor would create a nice dancey atmostphere. Even if its not for dance though, movers can and do fit in nicely to most types of show... just depend on how you use them and what for.

 

I don't think you can say you've never used movers gareth (and I'm not implying you did say that)... but what was your reasoning behind using them, and maybe even buying a hog II to control them? If pete, bob, ian or jeff want to buy movers then fair play to the guys... I don't think its anyone's place to tell them off for that, but if they want movers answer their questions and advise them on what they want to hear about... otherwise they would have posted with "Do you think I should buy movers instead of generics?" but I think "I'm thinking about buying some 250+'s what do people think" sort of somes up that this person has decided to buy some movers,... whatever reasoning behind it who knows, but that was his question.

 

[/rant]

[gareth]

things like ... Source4 Pars you would probably find helpful

 

Very true, they're excellent lighting tools. Change the beam angle by just changing the lens (no need to keep a stock of different lamps) ; physically nice and small ; with the 575w lamp in them you can just about get four of them onto a 10A channel if you don't flash them too much ; and with the 750w lamp and a VNSP or NSP lens in, they're stunningly bright.

 

Colin does have a point regarding it being nice for young people starting out in lighting to have an opportunity to get their hands on a moving light and use it as a chance to find out what they can and can't do. But that really has to come under the heading of "luxuries" - unlike the accquisition and upkeep of a decent stock of conventional lighting, which comes firmly under the heading of "essentials".

 

Peter also makes some good points regarding hiring moving lights as and when you need them, as opposed to tying up capital in equipment which might not be the most suitable units for the job at hand (e.g. a Mac250+ is no good if you need a colour-mixing wash light, or a moving profile with an iris).

 

So, it would appear that the opinion of the majority of respondants in this thread is that you'd do best to forget buying moving lights (for various reasons, a major one being the fact that the control system that you have available isn't really ideally suited to running the little beasties without causing some major headaches along the way), concentrating instead on building a stock of conventional lighting while maintaining a 'contingency' budget to facilitate the hiring of moving lights as and when you need them.

 

To answer Steve's points - yes, I've used moving lights a lot, but only in situations where the job would benefit from them - concerts, corporate jobs, awards ceremonies, revues, and even the odd piece of theatre. But the OP works in a school venue - school venues host things like drama department plays, school orchestra concerts, music department recitals, prize-givings, etc. - lots of the kind of thing for which there's rarely any kind of justification for using bells-and-whistles lighting, just lots of good old-fashioned 'steam lanterns'.

 

However, in the spirit of specifically answering the question that's been asked (in spite of the fact that it perhaps isn't the one that you should be asking ...), and to disprove the OP's incorrect assumption that I'm a grumpy old f**ker (which, in this case, I'm not - this is nothing, you wouldn't believe how grumpy I can actually get if the circumstances dictate!) .......... Mac250+'s are OK, no more, no less. They are limited in the number of colours that they offer, the stock gobos are terrible, there's no iris, and I've sometimes found that the rotating gobo indexing can be a bit ropey to say the least. As Peter has said, running costs (cost of replacement lamps) are not inconsiderable. If the OP really, really has his heart set on buying some moving lights to play with, he should consider Robe fixtures - these seem, to my mind, to offer better value-for-money than Martin units.

 

Personally, I'd suggest that a better way to have asked the question would have been : "This is the space I have to light, these are the kinds of performances which are staged there, this is the equipment that I already have, this is the power supply that I have available to me, and this is the budget that I have - what equipment would people recommend that I spent it on?". But hey, that's just a suggestion - no-one's "telling anyone off" as Steve puts it, we're just making suggestions as we think appropriate. As I've said before, they're no more than suggestions - heed them or ignore them as you see fit, but don't give people grief just because they offered you some free advice in the spirit of what this forum is all about.

 

Oh, and Steve ...

I remember bein laughed at (from some people on here if I remember correctly... certain moderators too! hmmmm) for lighting a dance show with a load of parcans+scrollers and shedloads of source fours... like you say gareth... whats this obsession with movers ? (!)

Really? I don't remember anyone "laughing at you" on this forum for lighting a dance show in any particular style. I've certainly never seen anything that you've lit, and I doubt that the majority of the moderators would have done either (with the probable exception of Rob). Care to provide us with a link to the topic in which your dance show lighting was so cruelly ridiculed?

[SparkySteve]

lots of the kind of thing for which there's rarely any kind of justification for using bells-and-whistles lighting, just lots of good old-fashioned 'steam lanterns'.

 

Incidently, the old theatre I used to work in still had gas powered lamps which had been converted to electricity!

 

Anyway, I think a few of the things I said up top were a little harsh and maybe didn't come out of me fingertippies just right, was having a bit of a rant, but nevertheless I've spoken to Gareth about them on a personal note...and I don't think he's too angry B-) but apologies to anyone who thought my comments were a bit bad... I'm a bad bad bad man! Some of the comments I stick by, some I re-read and cringed myself... ooops! was always good at creative writing, get carried away far too easy!

 

Steve :blink:

[Stu]

Lets face it, 95% of regional theatres out there are generic only houses. Some may have movers, most will not. So with this in mind what better to have in schools than stuff people will actually use come their time in a professional regional theatre. So, if this is the kind of school that provides interested students a chance, give them the oppertunity to play with stuff they will find in any old theatre they go too, from a little end-of-pier jobby to the biggest recieving house in the land.

 

Then after all of this you can move onto movers if you want too :blink: After all I count the amount of shows that have had movers in our venue over the last 2yrs on one hand...

 

Stu