Settle an argument

[WiLL]

First off, I am NOT a sound guy so excuse any rookie mistakes in this post. I can rig a simple set-up and operate it in the sense of noise is made in the right places and balance is achieved but that's about it. So I'm hoping that someone here with a better understanding can help me settle a disagreement I have with a friend of mine.

We're both members of an 8-piece band and at the last gig my mate (who owns the PA, A bose L1 system) insisted on putting the vocal mics through a noise gate to 'cut down on feedback'. During the first set I experienced what can only be described as intermittent vocals through the PA, or at least sudden drops in volume. I fiddled with every connection and cable with little success until I thought, hang on, is the noise gate deciding when I'm 'too loud' and cutting my vocals down in volume?

Are noise gates usually employed on vocal channels? surely light compression would be better, or no noise gate at all and just better managing of levels?

So the question is, to noise gate, or not to noise gate?

Appreciate any helpful responses.

Will

[dknoise]

First off, I am NOT a sound guy so excuse any rookie mistakes in this post. I can rig a simple set-up and operate it in the sense of noise is made in the right places and balance is achieved but that's about it. So I'm hoping that someone here with a better understanding can help me settle a disagreement I have with a friend of mine.

We're both members of an 8-piece band and at the last gig my mate (who owns the PA, A bose L1 system) insisted on putting the vocal mics through a noise gate to 'cut down on feedback'. During the first set I experienced what can only be described as intermittent vocals through the PA, or at least sudden drops in volume. I fiddled with every connection and cable with little success until I thought, hang on, is the noise gate deciding when I'm 'too loud' and cutting my vocals down in volume?

Are noise gates usually employed on vocal channels? surely light compression would be better, or no noise gate at all and just better managing of levels?

So the question is, to noise gate, or not to noise gate?

Appreciate any helpful responses.

Will

 

I suspect the "threshold" control of the gate was set too high, when you were singing quietly the gate remained closed (no sound) when you sang up a bit and exceeded the threshold set in terms of level you had noise again.

I would say don't bother if it's going to something thats set at the start of the gig and left, as demonstrated it's easy to come unstuck. EQ, management of levels, and speaker placement are your first ports of call. The feedback will be at a certain frequency, you need to use the EQ to reduce the level at that frequency to give you more headroom before you hit feedback. Compression will help in terms of getting your vocals to "sit" and will help a bit in terms of feedback prevention by maintaining more consistant levels but it needs to be set up correctly. My 2p

 

Regards

 

Dom

[Kevin Ross]

+1 on the threshold being too high. The problem is that on even a remotely loud stage the level of spill into the vocal mics is enough to trigger the gate to open, you compensate by raising the threshold. When you stand in front of the mic ready to sing you block a lot of the spill thus lowering the level and the gate remains closed or flits between open and closed when you sing.

 

 

 

If you really wanted to go down the getting route there are optical gates that sense if you are in front of the mic and open the gate only then. However I would be looking at a more traditional solution long before that.

 

 

 

Just out of interest what type of music is this 8 piece band? Those BOSE stick things are only useful in a handful of situations maybe it is a case of the wrong tool for the job?

[johndenim]

is the noise gate deciding when I'm 'too loud' and cutting my vocals down in volume?

 

A Noise gate

Works the other way round.

The 'threshold' is the level you must reach in order to 'open' the gate or the mic on this occasion.

I only use a gate with my guitar to reduce harmonics.

Link provides better explanation.

[Rob_Beech]

Gates for singing drummists can be useful though they really need to open and close subtly or you'll make a mess of things. Certainly for other vocalists in a rock n roll scenario I wouldn't bother, I don't see what problem it solves. In a conference type environment with say a number of table / lecturn mics this may help but for vocal work it is really a basic option for when the operator is non existent, or tied up doing something else. The best way to switch on and off vocal channels is with the mute button or preferably channel fader (pre/post aux permitting).

 

 

Rob

[Wilflet]

Iv known gates be used on the vocals in some céilidh bands. but these are generally just a caller who goes through the steps at the start of the song (and is well trained with the mic so always opens the gate) then it closes to reduce the ambient noise in the mix when he goes off. it only really worked because it was a fairly quiet stage. and I agree with Rob about it not being for when the op isnt present, I think their FoH guy does it out of lazyness, at monitors I used the mute button.

 

If you've anything other than a very quiet stage I think getting it to discern between the band spill and your voice will be more hassel than its worth. Has feedback been a major problem thus far?

[WiLL]

Cheers guys it sounds like the gate is clearly the problem here. Next time I'm going to insist that...

a) despite aesthetics, putting lead vocals directly in front of the Bose L1 is a terrible idea and should be avoided at all costs.

b) Noise gates are not toys and shouldn't be played with, or people could get hurt.

 

 

By the way Kevin, it's an 8-piece rhythm and blues band, with 3 horns, 2 vocal mics, bass, guitar, keys and drums. Smaller gigs we run vocal mics, harmonica mic, kick drum mic into a mixer which then goes to the Bose's T1 mixer, joining there with the 3 horn mics before coming out of the tower (L1). Keys, bass and guitar using their own amps.

Larger gigs we use a slightly different set- up

http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu40/WiLLF77/BigPARABB.gif

[Kevin Ross]

Thanks for the extra info.

 

 

 

From looking at it I would say that one of the causes of the feedback might be the under powered monitors, 70w each for a stage with a live drummer and horn section is a shade on the low side.

 

 

 

Your two points are valid. I would get the vocal mics as far away from the horn section and drummer as possible to reduce spill and generally tidy up the mix. Save the gate for the kick drum channel.

 

 

 

So in conclusion try to reposition the vocal mics at your next gig and see if that helps. If I was coming into this situation I would ditch the L1 and just have everything going through the one PA, bring some bigger monitors and maybe some of the see through Perspex disks to go behind the horn sections mics (they reflect the sound back at the player so they don’t need as much/any of their own instrument in their monitors). Set the stage up in such a way to reduce spill and still keep the musicians happy and have a great night at FOH listening to some Rhythm and Blues.

[WiLL]

and maybe some of the see through Perspex disks to go behind the horn sections mics (they reflect the sound back at the player so they don’t need as much/any of their own instrument in their monitors).

 

Unfortunately our horns are a 'dancing' horn section, so all use clip-on bell mics, hence using the L1 as a dedicated horn monitor (ideally directly behind them). Plus the horns love the L1 because of it's sympathetic eq's.

But thanks for the advice, will definately use those suggestions.

Cheers.

[TimmyP1955]

In order for a vocal gate to work, the quietest thing the vocalist does must be louder at the microphone than: every bit of the stuff one is trying to keep out of the mic.

 

This is almost never the case.

 

And even when it works, the mixperson has to deal with the change in sound as the amount of stage wash changes as the gates open and close.

 

The solution that works is proper placement of the noisemakers (speakers and musicians), and control of the volume level of the aforementioned noisemakers.

[tall_phill]

I have used expanders, very gently, on vocal mics before, but in corporate / public presentation scenarios, to cut out little bit of back ground noise when there was no talking. To be sure, an automixer would probably be more approrpiate here.

 

I don't think a gate (or compressor) is typically the right tool to manage feedback problems. But the gate could be useful to 'clean up' the sound mix if the vocal mic isn't being used for some time.

 

The optogate has been mentioned.

 

There are a number of stomp boxes that could be used to turn the mic on and off, though I could only reccomend this if there are lengthy instrumental sections where is shan't be needed. It may be worth looking for one with a 'soft mute' function. I use a slightly drifferent box, a short stop, made by ProCo for use with live translators in one of the shows I mix.

 

Alternatively, if you had a regular mixer-dude, who wasn't part of the band that is, they could learn the songs and paddle faders as needed, just like in theatre.