Direct Out for Recordings

[james.sealey]

Hi Guys

 

Just pondering over some recent live recording work I have done and in each instance I have taken the direct outs from the desk into my multi track recorder. Having taken feeds from a variety of different FOH desks I have noticed that whilst Soundcraft like to give you the option of having a 'pre' or 'post' direct out switchable from the rear panel, Midas and Allen & Heath don't. They are both defaulted to 'post' fader, and the only method they give you of changing this to 'pre' fade is by changing a solderable link on the boards internally - on each channel.

 

Giving that going forward, we already own a Midas (Venice 320)and a Heath (GL2200)desk, and I know we have a number of live events which will potentially want recording. My inital instinct tells me to take a 'pre' fade signal for recording, as what we might do to a sound for the live event as it happens, might not neccessarily be the best thing for the recorded sound. HOWEVER, I am starting to doubt my initial conclusion giving that Midas and Heath have both defulted to 'post' fader. So before I go ripping two desks apart to change the links, am I missing a trick?

 

J

 

<Edit for spelling and desk models>

[stagemanagement]

Y-Split your inputs?

 

Then you won't have to worry which desk you'll find yourself with when making a live recording.

[Bobbsy]

You're not missing a trick--when making a recording of an event that you're actually mixing live on the same console then pre-fade is the more desireable method of operation.

 

However, there is some logic to the post fade default as used by some manufacturers. Many mixers find their way into project studios where they're used as an input control for multitrack recording without the need to worry about the live mix. In this situation, obviously it's very handy to be able to use the faders to set up the recording levels and perform minor tweaks as the recording goes on--so for this, post fade is the way to go. I've read that, historically, the "studio" market for mixers was always larger than the live event area. I'm not convinced this is still true but it must be what is in mind when a manufacturer takes the decision to default to the post fade setting.

 

Of course, have this switchable is the best of both worlds now that so many mixers find multiple uses.

 

....but, unless you commute between studio and live event work, I'd get out the old soldering iron.

 

Bob

[Killyp]

Some of the larger Midas (H3000 and upwards I think) have jumpers inside which makes things a little easier. I can't remember exactly which ones it is though so don't hold that gospel.

 

+1 for Y-splits though, just make sure you haven't got phantom on on both of the sources.

[james.sealey]

You're not missing a trick--when making a recording of an event that you're actually mixing live on the same console then pre-fade is the more desireable method of operation.

 

I've read that, historically, the "studio" market for mixers was always larger than the live event area. I'm not convinced this is still true but it must be what is in mind when a manufacturer takes the decision to default to the post fade setting.

 

Of course, have this switchable is the best of both worlds now that so many mixers find multiple uses.

 

....but, unless you commute between studio and live event work, I'd get out the old soldering iron.

 

Bob

Glad to hear my thinking was on the right lines, unless anyone else can offer a +ve for the 'post' fade option? Bizarrly, I have been relishing the chance at a good hardcore soldering session!!!

 

 

Some of the larger Midas (H3000 and upwards I think) have jumpers inside which makes things a little easier. I can't remember exactly which ones it is though so don't hold that gospel.

 

+1 for Y-splits though, just make sure you haven't got phantom on on both of the sources.

 

Jumpers are def easier, although you still need to take the desk apart! It's funny how soundcraft opt for the switchable option, anyone know of any other desks like this?

 

Not completely sold on the idea of Y splits, it's another point of failure (potentially) which if it were to fail would affect both the live sound and the recording. Plus space in our dog box is at a premium!

 

I'm thinking it's soldering time, on both desks! At least then they are both on the same page so to speak, and if we were to get the need to hire another desk then one with switchable direct outs would be spec'd if recording was needed.

 

Cheers guys

 

J

 

<Edit for spelling - AGAIN>

[Rob K]

I can't offer advice on individual desks but as a recording type I would say you're safe going for pre-fade, as long as you're multitracking and you can adjust the inputs of your recorder if the signal is too hot out of the desk.

[mervaka]

just to throw another spanner in the works, I'd also see whether they are pre insert or post EQ or something. pre insert seems the most preferable method to me.

[Rob_Beech]

Well, I don't think it's a manufacturer dependant tradition. My GL2800 and Both of my Mixwizards as examples are pre fade on the direct outs. Both are post insert though.

 

There are LOTS of combinations and sometimes you need to find out which works best, have a day with the desk apart if they're not panel options.

 

In an ideal scenario, providing you have post recording controls then your direct outs will be straight after the pre amp. So pre insert, pre eq, pre HPF, and certainly pre fade.

 

The Soundcraft LIVE series (the LIVE 4 I and II) are post fade, not switchable so the theory doesn't work here either.

 

Most of the Heritage range of boards are switchable IIRC, so not necessary a rule here either.

 

 

Y splits are only ok if you have pre amps on your recording device, if you have a standard rack mount recorder for example a HD24, this only has line level inputs on the analogue side of things so you won't be able to use Y splits.

[Killyp]

This for me is one of the great advantages of digital boards - the flexibility of choosing things like the direct out position. Even the lower-end of the market, such as the 01v96 gives you the ability to switch the direct out from post-fade, to post-eq, and pre-eq.

[lightsource]

Well, I don't think it's a manufacturer dependant tradition. My GL2800 and Both of my Mixwizards as examples are pre fade on the direct outs. Both are post insert though.

 

There are LOTS of combinations and sometimes you need to find out which works best, have a day with the desk apart if they're not panel options.

 

Agreed, but...

 

There maybe the point (if you're only the recording engineer, using direct out's) of the FOH's mix ability, how good's the gain structure for example....are they 'wingin it, without proper soundchecks? Do they have a clue as to what they're doing.

 

Your input, is only as good as their Direct out, and that could be simply down to mic choice or placement.

[jamesperrett]

In an ideal scenario, providing you have post recording controls then your direct outs will be straight after the pre amp. So pre insert, pre eq, pre HPF, and certainly pre fade.

 

This is where insert 'sniffer' cables come in handy. At their simplest you use a TRS jack on one end with the tip and ring shorted together and a wire from this shorting link going to the input of your recorder. You could also make up a special cable with a TRS plug connected to a TRS socket with an extra cable coming from the send line and going to the recorder for the channels where you need to use the insert for compression or some other effect.

 

 

Cheers

 

James.