Choir and organ recording

[minioak]

Hi,

 

I'm recording a concert with pipe organ and choir (around 25 voices) in a cathedral. I've recorded this organ (by itself) before, and used two Shure KSM44Bs (set to omni) with a baffle between them, and got some really good results. The organ itself (ignoring for a moment the fact that organs use the building itself as part of the instrument), is positioned at the back of the cathedral, and has a choir organ at the front.

 

The sweet spot for the 2 omnis I found last time was in the back third of the cathedral, so I'm planning on using the same spot again (albeit with a couple of U89s because the KSM44s aren't available). However, I'm concisious that this is going to have the potential for lack of clarity on the choir. To solve this, I was planning on having a stereo pair closer to the choir, and mix it in post.

 

This is where you guys come in. I've been recommended a Sennhesier 418P stereo half shotgun for this purpose, and presume that the best location for this mic will probably be about 12 feet in front of the choir group, mounted above the head level. With this setup, I'm presuming I'd get enough of the choir to be able to provide the clarity for when they're singing with the main organ, while getting a good input for when they're singing with the choir organ (about 25 feet behind them), and mixing in some of the omnis to get the building back in post.

 

What do you think of this idea, and do you have any other suggestions I should consider?

 

Many thanks

 

Regards

 

John

[sticks]

Sounds to me like you are approaching it in a similar way to how I would, although I do have a few comments. If I had a choice of microphones and wanted to use spaced omnis, I would make sure I used a true omni microphone. Microphones with a switchable pattern are generally made by two back to back cardiod capsules, the sound of these in omni mode is quite different to a pressure difference style microphone. My recommendations would be DPA 4006 although they are small diaphragm. The neumann tlm-50 may be a good large diaphragm alternative although as the directionality changes with frequency it may not be appropriate for this situation.

 

As you suggest I'd probably use a stereo pair on the choir (if you want to keep no. of mics down) But be wary of using a 'shotgun' style microphone as you want to be able to move the microphone forward and back, and adjust the angle to ensure you capture all performers at a decent distance. My personal preference is for a spaced cardiod array, starting from the ORTF principal and then using my ears. DPA 4011 would be a good choice for this.

 

The other thing I'd be tempted to try for this recording, is delaying the choir pair when the main organ is playing to ensure that the time of arrival between the two sets of microphones doesn't mess up your front to back image. However...BE CAREFUL, if lots of the main organ is getting into the choir pair (as it probably will) then you have the potential of delaying this more and making it sound really messy so I would leave this to your ears.

 

hope that is useful...good luck!

[Bobbsy]

A good thoughful post from sticks there and not much I can add.

 

The DPA mics that he recommends (both the 4006 for the omnis and 4011 as a cardioid) would be very much my first choices for this application--and, indeed, I've rented exactly those for the same application in the past. An alternative I've used in the past for the choir application would be the Neumann KM184 which I've also had good results from.

 

I do share the concern about using the short shotgun....not necessarily what you want, especially if you have to move the mic closer.

 

Bob

[paulears]

I'll also back up the concern about any form of narrower angle microphone. Partly because of the problems of having holes in the middle, but mainly because the directionality changes so much as the frequency goes up. I made this mistake once in a very large church and discovered the shotguns (416s) seemed to emphasise the low range from the organ, which seemed to be there no matter what I did - no doubt a combination of the polar response of the mic at the bottom end, and reflections. I'd probably also record the choir using a pair of mics set to cardioid, as discussed, but do the blending in post, using as sticks said, ears, once some separation had been achieved before recording.

 

I must say that I'd probably be happy with a switchable omni - which to my ears has a slightly 'larger' sound than a true pressure operated mic. I realise it's not 'real' or 'natural', but it sounds nicer to my old ears! I know many love that accuracy that mics like the DPAs seem capable of, but I find it a bit clinical - perhaps just being truthful and not injecting any of their own personality?

[minioak]

Thanks for your responses. Much appreciated.

 

I think the generally consensus I'm hearing is that the shotgun approach is probably going to give some disappointing results, so I'll avoid, and opt for the spaced cardoids. I don't have access to any of the DPA microphones (unless somebody knows of a hire company that'll provide them in the Edinburgh area), so will most likely use the KM84s I can get.

 

Many thanks

 

John

[AndyL]

This is where you guys come in. I've been recommended a Sennhesier 418P stereo half shotgun for this purpose, and presume that the best location for this mic will probably be about 12 feet in front of the choir group, mounted above the head level.

 

Hi John,

 

Please be aware that the MKH 418-S is an MS microphone, I.e a rifle mic for the M and a figure eight capsule for the S. Output is on a 5 pin XLR as two separate balanced signals. Advantage of an MS mic is if you record it 'as is' you can vary the width of the stereo image in post by varying the amount of S when you matrix it back to L/R.

 

If you want MS then a better solution is an MKH 40 (cardioid) or MKH 60 (shotgun) or even MKH 20 (omni) for the M paired with an MKH 30 figure eight for the S.

 

How many tracks do you have available? I had good results on a similar job using several large diaphragm condensers closer to the various parts of the organ and the choir, plus a pair of rifles facing the 'wrong way' to pick up ambience. All mics recorded to separate tracks allowing lots of variation in post. It depends to some extent what the inteneded purpose of the end result is.

 

Andy.

[Shez]

I've recorded choir & orchestra / organ both with Sennheiser MKH30 / 40 (MS) and with Schoeps MK4s (ORFT). The Sennheisers were very good but just a tiny bit clinical & unexciting to my ears. The Schoeps were lovely and will certainly be my first port of call next time. They seem to be a bit of a favourite with classical engineers.

Richmond Film Services hire out most types of mics at very competitive prices and will happily courrier them anywhere in the country - I've always had excellent service from them.

[paulears]

I've never owned or even used a 418 myself, but I did try a 416/MKH30 in a dual mount. I used it for recording sound effects for a show, where I needed a one piece mic that would be able to record the sound of a light aircraft passing across in front of the camera. It worked rather well, but it wasn't a particularly truthfull result. With a 416, the sound source appears to stay almost in one place as it moves from directly in front towards the side, then it moves quickly to the sides. I've tried crossed shotguns, but in x/y format (or close to) I've always found that unless used at a distance, with the thinner, less distinct sound, they just aren't wide enough for realism. M/S with a cardioid might be worth trying - but I've never had much luck with shotguns for quality music recording

[AndyL]

I've never owned or even used a 418 myself, but I did try a 416/MKH30 in a dual mount. I used it for recording sound effects for a show, where I needed a one piece mic that would be able to record the sound of a light aircraft passing across in front of the camera. It worked rather well, but it wasn't a particularly truthfull result. With a 416, the sound source appears to stay almost in one place as it moves from directly in front towards the side, then it moves quickly to the sides. I've tried crossed shotguns, but in x/y format (or close to) I've always found that unless used at a distance, with the thinner, less distinct sound, they just aren't wide enough for realism. M/S with a cardioid might be worth trying - but I've never had much luck with shotguns for quality music recording

MS with an Omni and a figure 8 is the purest form. These two microphone patterns are the only 'native' or true microphone patterns that there are. All others, cardioid, super cardioid, etc. are all just variations based on modifying or combining the omni and figure 8 patterns in some way and as such introduce imperfections of one sort or another which would be absent in the 'originals'.

Next best is cardioid + figure 8. If you are interested in surround sound then it's two cardioids (front and rear facing) and a figure 8 to give you M-S-M.

 

Returning to the original question, my vote is use the U89's for the organ and the KM 184's on the choir and you won't be disapointed.

[soundgeek]

Go with the KM84s in a coincident pair. However, when I do choral recordings I find that the MD prefers more of the spaced pair(s) and less of the close pair - so you get a massive ambient sound. Not that it really matters what they think, but he does have a point. Its up to you but if it was me I'd keep the close pair at a low level :)

[AndyL]

Hi John,

just wondering if you've done the recording in question yet?

I would be interested, and I am sure others would too, to hear what you did with what in the end and how it went some time...

 

Andy

[paulears]

I've been selling quite a few microphones recently, and one of the factories I'm dealing with has a stereo large diaphragm model available - similar in style to the old Neumann SM2 and SM69s. Two multi-pattern omnis, one above the other, with the top capsule spinning on the bottom one. So with each one being Omni/Cardioid/fig-8, you have the choice of X/Y or M/S. They're going to send me a sample (via a slow boat) so when it comes, I'll see if I can arrange an organ and maybe choral outing for it, just to see if it holds up in use - and sounds like I hope. Could be a handy thing to have. I'll report back - but it will be a while.