Fat Frog move while dark

[Alexb_01]

Hi,

 

I'm really having trouble getting my head around the simplest way to get our movers to fade out to dark before changing attributes.

 

We plan to use our Fat Frog desk in full mode using a memory stack.

 

The whole deal of moving while dark seems to be one big unnecessary headache with this desk. For what it's worth I think the easiest way to deal with all this may just be to manually blackout using the grand master fader, press GO, give the movers time to move and then raise the grand master back up. This however starts bringing in more human element into the memory stack, is there a better way to do this?

 

On a slightly related note, on the memory stack what does the "LTP Fade" variable control? Is it how long the LTP attributes (ie: everything other than brightness) take to move to their new positions?

 

Thanks,

 

Alex

[tokm]

is there a better way to do this?

Hard to say without knowing how complex your show is and how 'on the ball' your Op is. In general I'd say no, stick to making the desk do all the works, just lowers the risk of their being a c0ck up during the gig/show. But, if the desks really not playing nicely and your Op's up to the task of doing the intensity fades himself, then its something to at least look at during the tech run or something.

 

Obviously if you do it like that, you'll loose any preprogramed HTP/Intensity fade times, so it'll be up to the Op to make sure fades are the right time for each cue... Something else to add to the list..

 

Is it how long the LTP attributes (ie: everything other than brightness) take to move to their new positions?

Yes

[Alexb_01]

The show is the musical the Wizard of Oz, it isn't overly complicated - mostly just simple scene changes with a few special lighting cues every so often.

 

The reason I'm a bit apprehensive about writing all the cues into the cue sheet is really the time and effort required; we are really quite pushed for time and thinking about it I'd imagine you'd have to put in quite a lot of extra cues and a lot of different timings. If it were to all be automated I presume you would have to have (each separate cues): fade down, change position, fade up, fade down, change position, fade up etc. I will have a play on Sunday at our next rehearsal to see how pain staking all the programming would be and also have a chat to the operator about what he would be happiest with.

 

Other than these two options are there no simpler options? This seems like the kind of feature that could so easily be built into the desk....

[tokm]

Oh.. shows how often (never) I use Frogs.. I thought you were saying you'd turned move while dark on, but it as getting the moves in at the wrong moments. Erm, well, then looks like you op'll be moving the GM all night..

 

This seems like the kind of feature that could so easily be built into the desk....

It could have, but not for Frog type money. They're not going to load a desk with features that only come with the more expensive desks, no one would buy them then would they! Its the same with limiting the desk outputs to only one universe. Sure they could add 2 or 3, but then what'd be the point of buying the rather more expensive desk that does multiple outputs.

 

T

[Alexb_01]

The move while dark on the lights isn't really suitable as it cuts with no fade and then moves... its a shame as that could have been an easy way out of the problem....

 

Out of interest does the Strand 300 Series have these kind of features? If you read the other topics I've recently made you'll see that I potentially had the option of using a Strand 300 Series on this show.

[smalljoshua]

Peter Explained how to do this a while back but I can't for the life of me find it now.

 

It went something along the lines of

 

Cue 1: Blackout with Position Palette 1 active

Cue 2: Lights up with Position Palette 1 active

Cue 3: Blackout with Position Palette 1 active

Cue 3.5: Blackout with Position Palette 2 active (Auto Follow On from Cue 3)

Cue 4 Lights up with Position Palette 2 active

 

Or something to that extent. Basically store each position as a palette and call it in an auto follow on cue in the blackout preceding it's use.

 

Josh

[Alexb_01]

Thats what I thought, its just the thought of programming 5 cues instead of 2 is a bit depressing.... Given the time scale we are working to (just over a week!) unless there is a more efficient way I think we will just set the cues and manage the intensity ourselfs with the Master Fader.

[LeeStoddart]

Alex, There is a recent thread on this subject of moving while dark on boards that don't have the feature built in. Do a search for "MARK CUES" or "DARK MOVING"

 

Achieving smooth transitions is not too difficult if you understand what you are trying to achieve. If you want to do something like fade intensities manually using the grand master, then press go, then fade up intensities using the grand master you will have a completely dark stage between each state - I doubt that is the look you are trying for.

 

At its simplest if you have say cue 11 with movers on at DSR, cue 12 does not use the movers and then in cue 13 the movers are on with gobos pointing at the cyc. Cue 12 needs to have the movers in the same state as in cue 11 but with an intensity of zero so that the fade out is clean. Then you need to insert a mark cue say 12.2 which is identical to cue 12 except the movers in the same state as cue 13 and again with an intensity of zero. Make cue 12.2 an auto follow on so that when Cue 12.

 

It becomes more difficult if you want to user the movers in successive cues but in different states - obviously it is impossible for them to cross fade their attributes invisibly while they are on. I'd try to avoid this situation but if you do want to do something like, cue 21 has the movers on at DSR and cue 22 has the movers as gobos on the cyc, I would end up with something like

cue 21 on dsr

cue 22 movers off at dsr, conventionals change to desired state

cue 22.1 movers off with gobos at cyc, conventionals as per cue 22

cue 22.2 movers on with gobos at cyc, conventionals as per cue 22

 

22.1 and 22.2 should be auto follow ons but the timing needs to be careful to make the change reasonably subtle.

[GridGirl]

Out of interest does the Strand 300 Series have these kind of features? If you read the other topics I've recently made you'll see that I potentially had the option of using a Strand 300 Series on this show.

 

Yes it does....I would have taken the 300 over the Frog any day, but maybe that's just me...

[Beaver]

Peter Explained how to do this a while back but I can't for the life of me find it now.

 

It went something along the lines of

 

Cue 1: Blackout with Position Palette 1 active

Cue 2: Lights up with Position Palette 1 active

Cue 3: Blackout with Position Palette 1 active

Cue 3.5: Blackout with Position Palette 2 active (Auto Follow On from Cue 3)

Cue 4 Lights up with Position Palette 2 active

 

Or something to that extent. Basically store each position as a palette and call it in an auto follow on cue in the blackout preceding it's use.

 

Josh

 

I have used this method before with the fat frog it worked for my purposes. As you can also move the movers dark while either other movers or generics up.

[GRisdale]

We're down to the last two nights of Newley - The Fool Who Dared To Dream, a fringe musical that's running on a Fat Frog. No movers, but plenty of scroller action, so I feel your pain. You can get there - using the method described by Lee. The only thing I'd say is that in real terms you're not programming "5" cues - only one extra one.

 

Plot cue 10 - with movers on SR

Plot cue 11 - no movers in this one

Plot cue 12 - movers on the cyc

Then go back to cue 11. Click insert cue to add 11.1, sort out your mover attributes to match cue 12, hit record, set to AUTO trigger.

 

You would have plotted 10, 11 and 12 anyway.

 

Personally I plotted the whole show, then wen' back to add the point cues in when everyone was having a break (saves slowing the plot down) though not always possible if the director wants to see everything through - though if you're in a rush... This process was not helped by the fact that I couldn't seem to find a live screen that would tell me what pallets were currently in use.

 

Another tip - you need to make sure that your "mark step" (the point cue) is fast enough that it's complete by the time the next GO comes along. Initially I made some of ours a bit too slow since they were scrolling the full length and I wanted to keep the noise down. If GO gets pushed while the scroll is still moving you will see the scroll snap to position as the intensity comes up (unlike the strand I think).

 

If you're trying to use them in different positions in consecutive cues even a Strand won't "add" an intensity blackout automatically (I believe), i.e. they won't "move when dark" if they never go dark, so you just have to plot through it.

 

If I had to plot Newley again next week I would beg borrow or steal a Strand 300/500 or similar - it will save you hours. I don't think that Frogs are "bad" desks, as others have suggested they have their place in the world. Plotting complicated shows with lots of attributes is not that place IMHO.

 

If you do use the Frog, make sure you allow time in the schedule for lots of messing around with point cues - you'll need it.

 

Good luck!

 

Gareth.

 

EDIT: Spelling. Can we have the old spell check back please?

[HobitLight]

Then go back to cue 11. Click insert cue to add 11.1, sort out your mover attributes to match cue 12, hit record, set to AUTO trigger.

Agreed, but, as a personal preference, I set my point cues to X.5 as opposed to X.1 just incase you then, for whatever reason, have to insert another point cue in between cue X and cue X.1.

Another tip - you need to make sure that your "mark step" (the point cue) is fast enough that it's complete by the time the next GO comes along.

To speed up the time you have to wait for the change to happen, decrease the dwell time. All cues are set to a default value of 3 seconds which mean that they wait for three seconds before the move happens.

 

HTH