A Lighting Designers RANT!

[Paul J Need]

Frankly, I am getting really hacked off (no, not just about the media hyping-up the credit crunch or the fact that Gordon Brown is spending (or rather spent off the country's savings) but something closer to my heart - light.

 

I am really hacked off at posts being placed on this forum about "how to light something"; now, I hear you say - why can't people learning about the business ask questions about how to create the effect of moonlight for example? Sure, they can ask but should we actually tell them the answer? If I said my colour choice for moonlight changed over my time (15-20 years) from 183 - 119 - #79 - #95 ,144 - eventaully ending up with checked 201......... does this illustrate a journey of discovery? A period of experimentation? Or, answers I received from people who expressed an opinion when asked?

 

My rant continues with posts similar to " I only have 6 lights but need to light a stage 8m wide - how do I do it? Not many people reply with the answer "use your imagination"?! Hear where I am coming from?

 

I spent two fabulous years teaching lighting and stage electrics at RADA and one of the things I learnt was how not to pass on my style of lighting to a student but rather try and encourage a sense of self-discovery and that there was no such thing as right and wrong - but a personal preference of how something should be done or look. If someone wanted to use green for moonlight - let them play with the idea and find out for themselves what works - THEN THEY FIND The style which suits them not something imposed by opinion?

 

So, perhaps we all should have a standard reply when someone asked a similar question - sorry can't tell you - just go out and play with the light

[J Henshaw]

Here, here. I am in full agreement Paul!

The only way to learn is to play experiment and investigate.

Look at what other people do, analyse their work and help make decisions to support your own style.

Try things, change colours.... it is my philosophy that to learn you must do.

 

I know I havent posted all that much, mainly because either 1) I have no more to add to a thread or 2) People are asking questions without having tried to find out the possible answers for themselves.

 

I support the view of try it for yourself and come bak to me if you get stuk or need a further point in the right diretion.

 

J

[benash]

Agreed in part. Unfortunately often the people who ask those sorts of questions don't have the resources to spend a week messing around trying things out and working out their style. To deny them any sort of help means that a) they're more likely to run out of time before they come up with something reasonable and end up putting on a second rate show and b) they won't bother coming back here. Neither of which is particularly positive.

 

Perhaps a better standard reply would be "you need to go and try it out yourself but here's a starting point if you're stuck...".

 

Ben

[LXbydesign]

I can see where your coming from on this rant! (calm down pAUL!! HEHE)

 

Yes, students or otherwise could ask these questions and quite honestly - for text book answers, rather than X amount of people keep asking the same questions on here, they really ought to be picking up a book about Stage Lighting and getting the info from there. Also ,as an LD, ive have found that, yes my style and the way I light gigs has changed over the years and the same with colour choice. Its almost like a "this months favorite colour for key sunlight is . . . ." - and then later on down the line , it will turn to something else.

 

For most of the students asking these questions - there is no right or wrong way, If ur doing this in a college or drama school - then that is the time to learn and make mistakes and it is quite acceptable to do so. People / tutors ect expect that! Its part of the process.

 

Sure . You dont want to be f'ing up designs and so on if your working on a gig for a corporate event- or other - where time and budgets can be very tight and you have the client overseeing evrything and it has to be right first time- but "student time" is the time where these mistakes can be made.

 

So if someone does ask,- I have a 8 meter stage - how do I light it with 6 lights - my reply would simply be " anyway you like! - experiment!" Maybe not sounding helpful and objective straight away, but then it opens the gateway for true learning.

 

I think a lot of the problem at the moment is that students in particular are getting wrapped up in all the technology like movers and media servers and LED kit , blah, blah, blah and seem to be omitting the basic functions of "true" lighting design just working with the staple kit of a collection of generics.

 

I trained at Drama School and at first went in thinking I knew it all but then was soon brought down to reality by the tutors - but then listened and learnt, had a fantastic 2nd year - was chosen to LD the bigger shows and the tour to US, so the turn-around of attidude and hard work and dedication paid off. We were taught to think for ourselves and apply our gaining knowledge to the task. If we needed help and guidence, it was there, but questions like the above were never asked. The answer was left to our own devices . . .

[JamieR]

I see where Paul is coming from. Sometimes I see on this forum, and others, too many people wanting too much done for them. As has already been said, the true gateway to learning is experimenting and playing with things to see what the best end result you can generate is. Granted, sometimes you need a starting point - I do sometimes when I'm doing things that I haven't got much experience with. What does annoy me though is when people can't be bothered to work out the issue for themselves and try and develop the solution on their own with little help and only a starting point. If someone gets stuck, then it's always good to ask and get a few pointers, but no one should expect everything to be done for them. I see this mainly in the IT forums that I use, but it's also commonplace to an extent on the BR.

[maeterlinck]

Paul, and others,

 

I couldn't agreed with you more. But, only for one section of people. Those that come here looking for inspiration or a quick solution to something they can't be bothered to work out or indeed even a starting point without offering what they know already are looking in the wrong place. I guess this is students, LDs or anyone that has the remit to come up with an artistic solution to a problem.

 

The flip side, in my opinion, is those coming to these forums wanting to tap in to other peoples knowledge to save working out a solution to a known problem.

 

To go with the moon light example should I be lighting a production as an artistic LD then asking how to do it here would not be fulfilling my remit to arrive at a design that matched the production. As Paul said the moon light could be green, hell, it could be red if it suited the production (I've had a bright pink Sun in a production before, but no one could have suggested that). However, should I be lighting a moon light scene for say a corporate event (go with it; often less artistic, less time, right first time) then I might want to ask other people, say, on this forum, for some quick and dirty suggestions.

 

I think the biggest issue comes with the difficulty in knowing which is which. Which comes back to the laziness problem Jamie mentioned, something I see a lot in the technical students I have the dubious pleasure of working with periodically. In fact some of the best responses I've seen on this forum have come out of clear, concise and honest questions. Answering the base questions of, what, why, where, with, and possibly how. You have to answer questions to ask one. Funny that.

[soundo26]

Funnily enough I have just posted a rant which is closely aligned to this one. I agree with what you are saying. We are often asked both on this and other forums and personally by others questions similar to this, usually asking how to cut corners and do things the easy way, possibly even by the unprofessionals who then go out and undercut us in our workplaces. At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old g*t we all try to be helpful and impart some of our experience to others, but I am getting tired of these enquiries and will often now give short shrift if asked.

 

All I can say is that if you are going to do a job, do it well, professionally and to do your best. If you need to know something go out and learn how to do it properly, don't look for shortcuts all the time.

 

Too many of us are losing our jobs to these guys resulting in shoddy workmanship across the industry, don't expect us to help you put us out of work guys!

[Light Console]

Right...don't quite know how this is going to go...

I wouldn't say that I will ever know all there is to know. There are many aspects of theatre which I know little about at all. There are some that I know something about. And there are the areas where I know a great deal, but not everything.

If it were possible for me to have had the internet and the BR when I was growing up, there would have been many posts from me asking how to do this or that. I knew at primary school I wanted to be doing something in the theatre world. I have and do now. In secondary school we had limited kit, till a fire. We did the show in a local proper theatre, (Hello AndrewC!), I had a go on my first followspot. After the fire, we had a refit, and had even less lighting, but a shiney A&H GL2200 to play with. I knew what each control did, and where it sent things, and how you got things back in again. I didn't know how to use it though.

I had what could be considered an apprenticeship at the Gantry, working on over 300 different shows. By the end of that, reading and translating kit from a plan and wish list into what we've got, and where I can put it, became easy. I went away to study Lighting Design at Rose Bruford. I recently talked to the course leader, who agreed with me that I was the odd ball of the group. I will never make a West End lighting designer! I still need help with Dance lighting, but I was given the knowledge on how and where each type of light could be used.

We weren't told this is how to light drama, but given a selection of scaled lanterns, made our own sound scapes and set and experimented. Even the rooms we did that in were called Lighting Labs. But for me, there are more things I learnt doing it hands on. I often come across a problem that I have seen before at University, and the solution then, works now.

When I went away to work with Thomsons, I was shown how to sound check. That is when I could put the knowledge from the A&H into use. I have never done a rock band, never done a drum kit even, but I bet I could if I needed to, because I have worked in venues that have had these events, and I watched and listened like a sponge.

I gain an awful lot of knowledge from the other members here, and there are times when I can help with things. I often wonder if people read the posts, and do anything as a result, we often don't get to hear. There was a post of mine months ago, that got a few, really helpful posts, which although not fully realised yet, led me to a lighting design that has stayed in place since the advice receieved in that thread.

I don't think anything beats getting stuck in with a pile of lights, a selection of gels, a free space to play in, and just seeing what light does.

[Ken Coker]

I have a very short answer and very long answer.

This is the very short answer:

 

Starting with GCSEs and moving upwards to even, I'm sad to say, to PhD level, we have devalued knowledge and learning. Thus students now ask, and expect to be told, "What is the answer to this?.

 

The question they should ask is "I wonder how this works?". I'm not a huge fan of Wikipedia, but Wonder gives a hint of what I might mean.

 

My longer answer involves being rude about stage management and board operating degrees; the nature of academic qualifications; some views about the difference between art and craft and many more topics. It would bore you all shitless.

 

Right, need to go and carry some more pee about

 

Hope PJN calms down by Thursday

 

KC

 

Have you all missed me?

[daifuse]

The only way to learn is to play experiment and investigate.

Look at what other people do, analyse their work and help make decisions to support your own style.

Try things, change colours.... it is my philosophy that to learn you must do.

 

Over the years I've done dozens of lighting designs for both drama and musical shows, but I once had the pleasure (quite a while ago) of working alongside an LD from Scottish Opera. He certainly changed my approach to design and I learnt a lot from him. I'd like to think my designs improved from that encounter onwards - not that I copy any of his ideas - I just learnt to experiment more and develop the use of colour more imaginatively.

 

Dave

[Guest lightnix]

I am really hacked off at posts being placed on this forum about "how to light something"; now, I hear you say - why can't people learning about the business ask questions about how to create the effect of moonlight for example? Sure, they can ask but should we actually tell them the answer? If I said my colour choice for moonlight changed over my time (15-20 years) from 183 - 119 - #79 - #95 ,144 - eventaully ending up with checked 201......... does this illustrate a journey of discovery? A period of experimentation? Or, answers I received from people who expressed an opinion when asked?

Spot on, Paul :up:

It does seem odd, to say the least, that none of these people ever think of buying four birdies and twenty sheets of variously-coloured gel to experiment with - especially when you consider the amount of money that seems to be around for movers :)

 

My rant continues with posts similar to " I only have 6 lights but need to light a stage 8m wide - how do I do it? Not many people reply with the answer "use your imagination"?! Hear where I am coming from?

I'd probably answer "work it out with a pen, paper and protractor", but that's just my approach and I do hear where you're coming from. With all the cheap / free 3D CAD / visualisation packages out there, you'd have thought that all these budding, creative types might have had the imagination to investigate them.

 

The fact that they haven't, says something, methinks :)

 

So, perhaps we all should have a standard reply when someone asked a similar question - sorry can't tell you - just go out and play with the light

A former colleague, when asked what lights he had used for such-and-such a show, would simply reply: "The right ones for the job" :D

 

To be fair though, he would sometimes be prepared to expand on that - especially if you took him down his favourite pub (the one with all the strippers in it) and bought him lots of beer. All you'd have to do then, was remember what he'd said - not always easy after 8 pints :blink:

 

 

Sometimes I see on this forum, and others, too many people wanting too much done for them...

Obviously they're the ones who aren't cut out for a career backstage. TBH we should thank them for the heads up and for saving us from wasting a day's pay on someone who couldn't hack it :(

 

 

Over the years I've done dozens of lighting designs for both drama and musical shows, but I once had the pleasure (quite a while ago) of working alongside an LD from Scottish Opera. He certainly changed my approach to design and I learnt a lot from him...

There have been similar people in my life, too. It's amazing what you can learn about various approaches to lighting design from... erm... lighting designers :)

[Just Some Bloke]

My longer answer involves being rude about stage management and board operating degrees; the nature of academic qualifications; some views about the difference between art and craft and many more topics. It would bore you all shitless.

No it wouldn't (well, not me anyway!)

 

Have you all missed me?

Naturally.

 

I am really hacked off at posts being placed on this forum about "how to light something"

 

Ah here we go again! I'm sure I started one of these once before and I wasn't the first and you won't be the last, Paul!

 

First thought:

 

Agree entirely with your thoughts. One would hope that when these people get their replies they take several opinions into account and use that as the basis for coming up with their own answer which may be quite different but came about by starting with other people's ideas: I suspect that's not the way it usually is, but it would be good if it were!

 

Second thought:

 

About a year ago, I think, I heard of a company who were looking for a Lighting Designer for their show and applied for the position. We agreed that I would do the job and they would get in touch with me to finalise the details but it was all sorted, I was to put the dates in my diary, and their email ended with the words "I look forward to working with you". Despite further emails from me, that was the last I heard from them. A few days later someone else came on the Blue Room (his profile said he was a student at a college studying Lighting Design) and asked how to light a particular show. It was the same show. They had obviously gone with a student (who, presumably said he'd do it for nothing) rather than an experienced professional. Now you may say "fair enough - that's their choice" but for him then to come here and ask me (and others) to tell him how to light the show does seem somehow wrong. If you want a job doing properly, get a professional to do it - don't get someone who has to ask others what to do. It certainly made me wonder if we should be answering all these questions. Actually, if I can help I still do, but I also wonder every time if this is someone else trying to take work away from the pros. If this keeps happening there won't be any pros left to ask. Then who'll light the shows? Maybe people will just have to put someothing up and see what it looks like - we could even use the word "experiment"!

 

Final thought:

 

Where do all my ideas come from (you'll notice that I often ask technical questions here but never artistic ones)? Watching. Watching what natural light looks like. Watching what artificial light looks light. Watching other people's designs and thinking either a) that looks great - how's it been achieved? then looking for the answer or b) that looks awful I must remember never to do that because it doesn't work. Also watching my own work and wondering what I would do differently if were to start again from scratch.

That's what I find works.

[MatSpencer]

Even being a student I agree with what has been said.

 

I'm one for constructive criticism from people who know have done more work than me or people who have been in the industry. But I wouldn't specifically go around asking people how to light for a certain style, as I see it (like has been said) just have a go...If it sucks, there's no harm just make a note and remember for next time!

[Ken Coker]

But I wouldn't specifically go around asking people how to light for a certain style, ..

 

No, but a very reasonable question to ask is "How did they do it?".

 

The very key to learning is asking the right questions.What Socrates did was do wander around the market place asking people what they did and how they did it, trying to find the essence of bowl making, beer brewing....blah blah blah. What he was unconcerned with was the recipe to make Hemlock's Old Toga Puller XXX.

 

The problem we have now is that every kid with a studio space and a Jester ML thinks that lighting is all about how to shine bright and moving things on the next "We Will Rock You" ; they never think that there may be a "lighting" that exists on a conceptual level.

 

I would encourage you, DMX_trainee, to ask questions of your LDs; I would also encourage LDs in education to do debrief sessions after events.

 

KC

 

(There will be sniggerers that might say there are LDs who encourage de-briefing .......that is very smutty Andrew C, and I wish to see you in my study after prayers. It's also a very old Footlights joke)

[JimWebber]

Spot on, Paul :up:

It does seem odd, to say the least, that none of these people ever think of buying four birdies and twenty sheets of variously-coloured gel to experiment with - especially when you consider the amount of money that seems to be around for movers :huh:

 

And as an even cheaper option, I have spent hours well several minutes with a Maglite, a filter swatch book. and various shades of paper...

 

It even emulates moving lights too... All it requires is co-ordinated movement of the muscles in my wrist, forearm and shoulder...

 

Jim