Monitoring multiple source mix/solos in 1u!

[drewsoundguy]

This is going to be a tough one.... I've got a feeling in my waters (and no, it's not my age!)... It'll probably be easier if I explain what I want to achieve first, then maybe my possible ideas at the moment will make sense.

 

I want to monitor 12 mono audio sources, either listening to a mix of them (where I can adjust the mix ideally) or soloing an individual channel. It only needs to have one mono output (although ideally with the option to plug headphones in to the unit). Most of you are probably already thinking "just buy a mixer!" but here comes the crunch.... It needs to fit into a 1u rack space (okay, 2u at an *absolute* push) !!!!

 

My thoughts...

 

1. Some form of digital audio switcher. Maybe for ease of switching between inputs and the overall mix it could be midi controlled, that way I'm not looking for small buttons in the dark, I can control it from the laptop. Space is not always a luxury, so it'd be good if I could control the unit without acutally being sat directly in front of it. The MIDI thing would be a luxury though, it wouldn't be the end of the world if I had to press a button on the unit, although wading through menus isn't an option.

 

2. A multi input sound card with a software-based mixer (windows based please) - effectively the sound card would just be doing the same job as in option 1. Latency wouldn't be an issue, although for sanity's sake keeping it to a minimum would obviously be good!

 

 

Any ideas on products for option 1 or software for option 2?? I've had a look, but not come up with much for either option. Alternatively does anyone have alternatives to this idea?

 

 

Many thanks in advance for any comments!

[charlier]

Well, you can certainly do this in spades with SoundMan-Designer/SoundMan-Server:

 

http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/sm-dref.html

http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/sm-sspecs.html

 

MDI and/or telnet (TCP/IP) controllable and completely programmable if you wish) - overkill perhaps but certainly affordable!

 

Charlie

[drewsoundguy]

Overkill!?!?! Good grief, I could leave this running at home and come back later to find it'd done all the housework and made dinner for me!

 

Although it's not show critical, option 2 obviously relies a lot on software not working. It'd be very nice to have everything done in one box, with just a control surface on a laptop. The SoundMan system seems very heavily reliant on software with a number of applications required to get this idea off the ground!

 

Thanks for the suggestion though - the site doesn't really do the product justice unfortunately. It's a good idea I think, but it's a shame that the website doesn't sell it as well as it should be.

[charlier]

Thanks for the suggestion though - the site doesn't really do the product justice unfortunately. It's a good idea I think, but it's a shame that the website doesn't sell it as well as it should be.

The web site is oriented to promoting SoundMan-Server as an api for third party programmers as you suspect, since there are not that many apps that use it available just yet. When these third parties release their apps, they promote them to end users on their own web sites (we have links to those apps on some other pages on our site now) and one of the primary features that everyone can take advantage of is that all client apps can operate simultaneously using the same VSS. I'm not sure what you mean by option 2 relying on software 'not working' though - can you clarify that? The statement is rather puzzling. As far as SoundMan being reliant on a number of apps, this is certainly not true for a simple requirement such as yours. All it needs is a simple app such as Palladium communicating with SoundMan-Server in an effective way.

[drewsoundguy]

... I'm not sure what you mean by option 2 relying on software 'not working' though - can you clarify that? The statement is rather puzzling.

Apologies... reading the post back that makes absolutely no sense to me either!!!!That should have read something along the lines of "option 2 relies on software not crashing"!!!

 

It's one thing to have the software just acting as a control surface, it's a whole different ball game when the software is actually doing the hard work - any software failure/computer problems means a loss of audio...

 

...thinking about it that kind of rules out option number 2 unless I get soundcards with DSP technology in them. Apologies, for that.So then, option number 1 it seems would be the cheaper way forward when you factor in robustness and reliability. Although I said, it's not show critical it'd still be a pain if the audio processing eats all my laptop processor throughout the show!

 

edit>>> afterthought >>>

 

Something along these lines maybe...http://www.ward-beck.com/products/select/rav24.php There's an audio only version available too (the RA24)

 

Obviously what this lacks is the ability to create a mix. A workaround would be to split the signal (pre this unit) and send that to a 1u analogue mixer, the output of which comes back in on input 12 on the switcher. That way, when I'm not soloing one of the other channels I could listen to a mix (and have control over it). The unit is also remotely controllabe via serial.Any improvements on this most gratefully recieved.

[dbuckley]

In 1u: Soundweb London Blu-80 configured as 12 ins, 4 outs

 

Other options taking 2u:

 

A pair of older green Soundwebs would do the job. It's (a) not cheap, and (b) a shame you're wasting 15 outputs, but it will give you 16 inputs you can mix and solo from a lappie. Given the complete absence of front panel controls, that would indeed be the only sensible option. A pair of proper soundwebs gives you the digital audio linking, so you can manage it without using analogue channels to cascade. Or you could use the lower cost 'lite' soundwebs and audio cascade, losing one input and one output in the process, but you still have in excess of the requirement so no real loss. Or, you could take a flier on an impersonator of the soundweb lite, the Ateis UAP88.

 

With any of these boxes you also get a bucketload of processing capability available, so you can dump outboard and even mixers.

 

Neve 8816 also a contender in 2u.

 

Richmond's audiobox you've already heard about.

 

If you just want to listen to one as a time a pair of cascaded Kramer VS-2481 switchers would do, but thats solo only, no mix. However, it will cost a lot less than a couple of soundewebs, or indeed anything with the name 'Neve' on the front :** laughs out loud **:

 

Finally, a 2u rack draw with a small mixer in it...

 

Edited to add: And if budget means you can drop to 4u... Peavey Digitool MX, which is the cheapest of these sorts of DSP boxes, they are 8x8 so you would need two of them.

[charlier]

... I'm not sure what you mean by option 2 relying on software 'not working' though - can you clarify that? The statement is rather puzzling.

Apologies... reading the post back that makes absolutely no sense to me either!!!!That should have read something along the lines of "option 2 relies on software not crashing"!!!

Any digital device can crash and stop your audio but people have considered this possibility and chosen to trust them for years now. Using DSP based sound cards wouldn't make much difference nor would using standalone DSP devices which can also fail. My position is still that the Virtual Sound System as represented by SoundMan-Server is the cheapest and best solution and represents the future of this architecture. We have been building software based show/audio systems with a reputation for reliability that theatres and theme parks the world over have relied on since 1985 and we maintain the software is far more reliable than anything else you can get. Read about our latest big installation using this latest version here: http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/docs/Wa...ldRefit2007.pdf

[drewsoundguy]

Any digital device can crash and stop your audio but people have considered this possibility and chosen to trust them for years now. [/url]

 

True, but I think you'll find that people would be more inclined to trust a system where the audio processing/routing is handled by a seperate box with a control surface on a PC rather than the PC actually dealing with the audio routing using a piece of software. I use digital desks most days and have confidence in them, but conversely I've seen even the best digital desks (PM5Ds, Profiles, Venues) lock up.

 

We've all seen windows (or applications running on windows) crash at inopportune moments for no apparent reason, but an option 1 system (such as soundweb) would continue to function if windows went down. No digital device is every 100% foolproof, and anyone who thinks otherwise is destined for a shock when it happens 5 minutes before showtime!

 

I think it would be a different matter in an installation where all the components stayed together - yes, in that instance I (personally) would be happy to use the software solution you suggested but only on a dedicated computer - the problem is I don't have the luxury of having the space or budget to fly a seperate computer or laptop around with me. I run quite a few different pieces of software on my laptop when I'm working, and this would have to be in addition to the applications I'm already running, hence why I'd be happy to have a software control surface on the laptop but not everything.

 

 

<<<<<.........Later thought.......>>>>>

Okay, a slight variation then...If I scrap the idea for remote control from the laptop, it could be done with a standard mix, assuming the mixer had a cue facility. That way I could create a mix, then solo any one channel. I'm struggling to find a rackmount mixer with a cue feature. Any suggestions?I know this is a little way from where we were going initially but I think that the price tags associated with soundweb units are going to push the price too high. At the end of the day the remote operation wasn't important enough to justify a price hike by several hundred pounds. Any ideas on rackmount mixers with a cue or pfl feature?

[mackerr]

I want to monitor 12 mono audio sources, either listening to a mix of them (where I can adjust the mix ideally) or soloing an individual channel. It only needs to have one mono output (although ideally with the option to plug headphones in to the unit). Most of you are probably already thinking "just buy a mixer!" but here comes the crunch.... It needs to fit into a 1u rack space (okay, 2u at an *absolute* push) !!!!

This is a pretty common request in theatrical wireless mic systems. It is important for the deck soundman to be able to monitor all the mics, which could be upward of 50 or 60 mics. For a small system such as you describe the old fashioned analog solution is the TOA MP-1216. I have seen systems built around Symetrix Symnet on a much larger scale.

 

Mac

[charlier]

Any digital device can crash and stop your audio but people have considered this possibility and chosen to trust them for years now. [/url]

 

True, but I think you'll find that people would be more inclined to trust a system where the audio processing/routing is handled by a seperate box with a control surface on a PC rather than the PC actually dealing with the audio routing using a piece of software. I use digital desks most days and have confidence in them, but conversely I've seen even the best digital desks (PM5Ds, Profiles, Venues) lock up.

 

We've all seen windows (or applications running on windows) crash at inopportune moments for no apparent reason, but an option 1 system (such as soundweb) would continue to function if windows went down. No digital device is every 100% foolproof, and anyone who thinks otherwise is destined for a shock when it happens 5 minutes before showtime!

 

I think it would be a different matter in an installation where all the components stayed together - yes, in that instance I (personally) would be happy to use the software solution you suggested but only on a dedicated computer - the problem is I don't have the luxury of having the space or budget to fly a seperate computer or laptop around with me. I run quite a few different pieces of software on my laptop when I'm working, and this would have to be in addition to the applications I'm already running, hence why I'd be happy to have a software control surface on the laptop but not everything.

 

 

<<<<<.........Later thought.......>>>>>

Okay, a slight variation then...If I scrap the idea for remote control from the laptop, it could be done with a standard mix, assuming the mixer had a cue facility. That way I could create a mix, then solo any one channel. I'm struggling to find a rackmount mixer with a cue feature. Any suggestions?I know this is a little way from where we were going initially but I think that the price tags associated with soundweb units are going to push the price too high. At the end of the day the remote operation wasn't important enough to justify a price hike by several hundred pounds. Any ideas on rackmount mixers with a cue or pfl feature?

Methinks you doth protesteth too much....

[drewsoundguy]

This is a pretty common request in theatrical wireless mic systems. It is important for the deck soundman to be able to monitor all the mics, which could be upward of 50 or 60 mics.

 

You've hit the nail right on the head!! Although it wasn't intentially set as a challenge, I did wonder when someone might actually question why I wanted to achieve what I did. With hindsight, I suppose if I'd mentioned wireless mics we might have got to this point a little faster!

 

 

Methinks you doth protesteth too much....

Sorry, I'm a fussy bugger!!! I think digital desks, audio networking, and the whole digital audio world we're discovering is the best thing since sliced bread, but I'm all too aware in how quickly technology can gang up on you through no fault of your own! Even the best equipment fails. Like I said, the AudioMan software looks really good but I just wouldn't trust any laptop or computer that's used day-to-day for a number of things to perform flawlessly - I'd use a dedicated computer or laptop that doesn't keep getting unplugged from the soundcards, etc. all the time.